PSI/Aftershock NA project dyno numbers
Feb 22, 2008, 06:34 PM
#16
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it's not confirmed to be RRM's header as far as I'm concerned. no offense modern, you're a respectable guy here, but I'd rather hear it from the horses mouth.
I have read a lot on header design, so I know there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. I don't have the knowledge, tools, or experience to know if a design is going to work well in a particular engine just by looking at it so I would need someone to provide proof that HP was gained or lost with a particular piece. the obvious restrictions our stock system has set aside, how do you know what design will work well
it's a matter of math, testing, and experience.
If I had to guess I would say a medium length four to one header with a decent collector (as hackish mentioned, this transition is quite important) will produce decent power. I know very little about how to incorporate resonance into header design, but I do know things like that are important
I have read a lot on header design, so I know there is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. I don't have the knowledge, tools, or experience to know if a design is going to work well in a particular engine just by looking at it so I would need someone to provide proof that HP was gained or lost with a particular piece. the obvious restrictions our stock system has set aside, how do you know what design will work well
it's a matter of math, testing, and experience. If I had to guess I would say a medium length four to one header with a decent collector (as hackish mentioned, this transition is quite important) will produce decent power. I know very little about how to incorporate resonance into header design, but I do know things like that are important
Feb 22, 2008, 10:04 PM
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well it must be RRM or RPW, those are the only 2 company that makes headers for 4g69, its not OBX, obx does nothing for 4g69, The guy said its his friend and that its a RRM header.
I dont think the RRM will make any loss in whp, I do think that header, and the other one suck, its OBX quality with 4 times the Price, and that sucks, But I still dont think it will make any whp loss at all.
It was me? or you said you test the Header with the car compleatly stock?
I think thats the problem, A header doent nesesarily need to give you better ## with the rest of the engine STOCK, I bet you can get better results with the CAI, and Ex, and allo those things you said you installed after taking out the header.
And about the PORT MATCH ...
I have never hear a portmatch will produce so much whp loss, I havent hear from gains, but neither losses....
I dont think the RRM will make any loss in whp, I do think that header, and the other one suck, its OBX quality with 4 times the Price, and that sucks, But I still dont think it will make any whp loss at all.
It was me? or you said you test the Header with the car compleatly stock?
We dyno'd the car stock at 138whp. We installed an aftermarket header but the car lost 2-4hp. Looking at the stock unit I am of the opinion that unless many hours were spent developing an aftermarket piece it's unlikely to make any significant gains. So it was removed and we added a complete 2.5" exhaust system - high flow cat to the tailpipe. Added an underdrive pulley and a weapon R short ram air intake. Also added some hardware to retune the vehicle.
And about the PORT MATCH ...
I have never hear a portmatch will produce so much whp loss, I havent hear from gains, but neither losses....
Feb 23, 2008, 03:45 AM
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well it must be RRM or RPW, those are the only 2 company that makes headers for 4g69, its not OBX, obx does nothing for 4g69, The guy said its his friend and that its a RRM header.
I dont think the RRM will make any loss in whp, I do think that header, and the other one suck, its OBX quality with 4 times the Price, and that sucks, But I still dont think it will make any whp loss at all.
It was me? or you said you test the Header with the car compleatly stock?
I think thats the problem, A header doent nesesarily need to give you better ## with the rest of the engine STOCK, I bet you can get better results with the CAI, and Ex, and allo those things you said you installed after taking out the header.
And about the PORT MATCH ...
I have never hear a portmatch will produce so much whp loss, I havent hear from gains, but neither losses....
I dont think the RRM will make any loss in whp, I do think that header, and the other one suck, its OBX quality with 4 times the Price, and that sucks, But I still dont think it will make any whp loss at all.
It was me? or you said you test the Header with the car compleatly stock?
I think thats the problem, A header doent nesesarily need to give you better ## with the rest of the engine STOCK, I bet you can get better results with the CAI, and Ex, and allo those things you said you installed after taking out the header.
And about the PORT MATCH ...
I have never hear a portmatch will produce so much whp loss, I havent hear from gains, but neither losses....
Here Ill be quick to correct U my friend.... Im not pro bashing nor gloryfing products, but my RRM header still looks like the day I got it, my engine bay aint the cleanest either, Its been like a year already. U can say whatever u want about the power, but quality is top notch.
I had an OBX for my Mirage and it took a day and a track day for it to come back purple, today, its a rust factory, the number 3 piston runner is cracked
This was last Tuesday @ Ponces track, u can barely see it but its shiny as hell, and Ive never cleaned it
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7079/dsc00884rc4.jpg
Feb 23, 2008, 05:37 AM
#22
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Correct me if I am wrong here but Hackish took a stock Rallart header and custom exhaust a piggyback and SRI and put up some good numbers??? I am starting to believe that the Lancer market has been flooded with semi decent products for so long.
Now all of our competitors have a legitimate challenger on their hands....
Keep up the good work Hackish.........
Now all of our competitors have a legitimate challenger on their hands....
Keep up the good work Hackish.........
Last edited by OttRalliart05; Feb 23, 2008 at 05:40 AM.
Feb 23, 2008, 08:04 AM
#23
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Who made this header isn't really that important. I didn't spend a lot of time doing a head to head comparison of this versus stock. It's expensive to do comparisons like this and why for a product I may never design. I've had a few requests to design a header for the car now. Not sure if I'll have the time because it is fairly involved process.
Just to clarify, the factory piece runs 360 degree opposition on joining runners. Which is to say cylinder 1 and 4 fire 360 degrees apart. So these two runners join at the front of the engine and continue down until they finally join near the flange. Same idea with the 2 and 3 runners. (Don't forget every engine period is 720 degrees of crank rotation).
Although the factory piece isn't a perfect design it does well given the cost/benefit and the amount of space it takes up.
The trouble is if you use short runners and go 4:1 you lose any scavaging benefits from runner length and it has a tendancy to give oscillations in the torque. If you look at any 4:1 race header - I mean the ones well researched and not chinese knockoffs you will notice a few things.
a) Collector design
That's what a top quality 4:1 collector looks like. It was made by Burns Stainless. You can see that the style of collector is very similar to the turbo manifolds I make. The inside shape is very important.
b) tubing size - they are very specific about the size tubing they use. Bigger is not always better as you still need to keep the exhaust velocity high so it has adequate scavaging capabilities.
c) Primary length. Here is an example of one of the better performing honda headers. I know this isn't a Honda but it's the first piece that came to mind when I consider well researched and top quality pieces - and believe me the honda world is full of junk. It is not by accident that the primaries are so long on that design. It also produces a significant amount more power than its competition.
I'm sure I could go on all day about quality stuff. If people were willing to pay $1200 for an NA header then I'd set about designing one.
Just to clarify, the factory piece runs 360 degree opposition on joining runners. Which is to say cylinder 1 and 4 fire 360 degrees apart. So these two runners join at the front of the engine and continue down until they finally join near the flange. Same idea with the 2 and 3 runners. (Don't forget every engine period is 720 degrees of crank rotation).
Although the factory piece isn't a perfect design it does well given the cost/benefit and the amount of space it takes up.
The trouble is if you use short runners and go 4:1 you lose any scavaging benefits from runner length and it has a tendancy to give oscillations in the torque. If you look at any 4:1 race header - I mean the ones well researched and not chinese knockoffs you will notice a few things.
a) Collector design
That's what a top quality 4:1 collector looks like. It was made by Burns Stainless. You can see that the style of collector is very similar to the turbo manifolds I make. The inside shape is very important.
b) tubing size - they are very specific about the size tubing they use. Bigger is not always better as you still need to keep the exhaust velocity high so it has adequate scavaging capabilities.
c) Primary length. Here is an example of one of the better performing honda headers. I know this isn't a Honda but it's the first piece that came to mind when I consider well researched and top quality pieces - and believe me the honda world is full of junk. It is not by accident that the primaries are so long on that design. It also produces a significant amount more power than its competition.
I'm sure I could go on all day about quality stuff. If people were willing to pay $1200 for an NA header then I'd set about designing one.
Feb 23, 2008, 08:27 AM
#24
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http://www.bigcitythunder.com/pages/...ng_exhaust.pdf
Feb 23, 2008, 08:30 PM
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Here Ill be quick to correct U my friend.... Im not pro bashing nor gloryfing products, but my RRM header still looks like the day I got it, my engine bay aint the cleanest either, Its been like a year already. U can say whatever u want about the power, but quality is top notch.
I had an OBX for my Mirage and it took a day and a track day for it to come back purple, today, its a rust factory, the number 3 piston runner is cracked
This was last Tuesday @ Ponces track, u can barely see it but its shiny as hell, and Ive never cleaned it
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7079/dsc00884rc4.jpg
I had an OBX for my Mirage and it took a day and a track day for it to come back purple, today, its a rust factory, the number 3 piston runner is cracked
This was last Tuesday @ Ponces track, u can barely see it but its shiny as hell, and Ive never cleaned it
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7079/dsc00884rc4.jpg
Hey, in first OBX made horrible thing, but they are improving , hehhe
+ I have seen 2 RRM header full of rust
, here on the forums, and when its a $100 header it doent matter, but when you pay $600 for it, it gets pretty anoying.the RRM header has ceramic coting , so it is supposed to last longer than one that its chrome like every OBX
yes maybe the materials have better quality and the welds maybe are better, but its still a cheap header.
Its like "lets do this thing so we can get some $$ no matter if its a CRAP cause there's no other on the market, so who cares? "
My exp. tell me that I wont pay more than $200 for neither of the 2 Headers on the market for 4g69. It simply doesnt worth it
NOW RIPP make a Header for the Eclipse GS (yes its 4g69) and that header at least looks like they put some time and $ to make it. Go to club4g.org GS forum, and take a look at it.
Feb 23, 2008, 08:33 PM
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Who made this header isn't really that important. I didn't spend a lot of time doing a head to head comparison of this versus stock. It's expensive to do comparisons like this and why for a product I may never design. I've had a few requests to design a header for the car now. Not sure if I'll have the time because it is fairly involved process.
Just to clarify, the factory piece runs 360 degree opposition on joining runners. Which is to say cylinder 1 and 4 fire 360 degrees apart. So these two runners join at the front of the engine and continue down until they finally join near the flange. Same idea with the 2 and 3 runners. (Don't forget every engine period is 720 degrees of crank rotation).
Although the factory piece isn't a perfect design it does well given the cost/benefit and the amount of space it takes up.
The trouble is if you use short runners and go 4:1 you lose any scavaging benefits from runner length and it has a tendancy to give oscillations in the torque. If you look at any 4:1 race header - I mean the ones well researched and not chinese knockoffs you will notice a few things.
a) Collector design
That's what a top quality 4:1 collector looks like. It was made by Burns Stainless. You can see that the style of collector is very similar to the turbo manifolds I make. The inside shape is very important.
b) tubing size - they are very specific about the size tubing they use. Bigger is not always better as you still need to keep the exhaust velocity high so it has adequate scavaging capabilities.
c) Primary length. Here is an example of one of the better performing honda headers. I know this isn't a Honda but it's the first piece that came to mind when I consider well researched and top quality pieces - and believe me the honda world is full of junk. It is not by accident that the primaries are so long on that design. It also produces a significant amount more power than its competition.
I'm sure I could go on all day about quality stuff. If people were willing to pay $1200 for an NA header then I'd set about designing one.
Just to clarify, the factory piece runs 360 degree opposition on joining runners. Which is to say cylinder 1 and 4 fire 360 degrees apart. So these two runners join at the front of the engine and continue down until they finally join near the flange. Same idea with the 2 and 3 runners. (Don't forget every engine period is 720 degrees of crank rotation).
Although the factory piece isn't a perfect design it does well given the cost/benefit and the amount of space it takes up.
The trouble is if you use short runners and go 4:1 you lose any scavaging benefits from runner length and it has a tendancy to give oscillations in the torque. If you look at any 4:1 race header - I mean the ones well researched and not chinese knockoffs you will notice a few things.
a) Collector design
That's what a top quality 4:1 collector looks like. It was made by Burns Stainless. You can see that the style of collector is very similar to the turbo manifolds I make. The inside shape is very important.
b) tubing size - they are very specific about the size tubing they use. Bigger is not always better as you still need to keep the exhaust velocity high so it has adequate scavaging capabilities.
c) Primary length. Here is an example of one of the better performing honda headers. I know this isn't a Honda but it's the first piece that came to mind when I consider well researched and top quality pieces - and believe me the honda world is full of junk. It is not by accident that the primaries are so long on that design. It also produces a significant amount more power than its competition.
I'm sure I could go on all day about quality stuff. If people were willing to pay $1200 for an NA header then I'd set about designing one.
Feb 23, 2008, 08:48 PM
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RIPP:
the other 2:
^that one SCREAMS " OBX " !!!!!!!
AND BTW: No I dont think Ripp's its the best header on the world, but seems to be the best one of those 3
the other 2:
^that one SCREAMS " OBX " !!!!!!!
AND BTW: No I dont think Ripp's its the best header on the world, but seems to be the best one of those 3
Feb 23, 2008, 09:41 PM
#29
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The header I removed did not look like any of the three you posted pics of. The ripp mods one looks to be about where I'd start if I were to design a 4:1 header.
Feb 23, 2008, 09:49 PM
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That RIPP one looks really good until it gets to the downpipe part...what with all that bending
RRMs has a bit of akward bending on the downpipe too, but not as pronounced
I dont remember RPWs design but it was close to that RIPP one, at least the header part
That last one is not for RA, check the bolt patterns
RRMs has a bit of akward bending on the downpipe too, but not as pronounced
I dont remember RPWs design but it was close to that RIPP one, at least the header part
That last one is not for RA, check the bolt patterns