If there WERE a reflash available...
#16
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No way would I pay that much for a one-time flash made by a guy that has never even seen my car, much less tuned it for WI conditions.
If it were a program that could be used (like ECUflash) to make as many changes as I want, I might go for it, depending on price.
$700 is a LOT of money for 15hp.
If it were a program that could be used (like ECUflash) to make as many changes as I want, I might go for it, depending on price.
$700 is a LOT of money for 15hp.
#17
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Thread Starter
The trouble with an open source reflash is that someone has to do the work for free and give it away. I wish I could do like we did with the first honda stuff and give it away but at the end of the day I have to somehow put food on the table and pay for the electronics used to build the testbed for "cracking" the ECU - the equipment alone costs more than a new Ralliart.
I've been working on the reflash now a number of months. I have learned a great deal about how the ECU works and I know the reasons why no available piggyback will work correctly with it. I designed one that does but it's too expensive by the time it's installed and tuned (over a grand).
If I can figure out a cheaper way to build the daughterboard that goes inside the reflashed ECU then I might be able to bring the price down.
-Michael
#18
iTrader: (14)
Neither offer services for the Ralliart.
The trouble with an open source reflash is that someone has to do the work for free and give it away. I wish I could do like we did with the first honda stuff and give it away but at the end of the day I have to somehow put food on the table and pay for the electronics used to build the testbed for "cracking" the ECU - the equipment alone costs more than a new Ralliart.
I've been working on the reflash now a number of months. I have learned a great deal about how the ECU works and I know the reasons why no available piggyback will work correctly with it. I designed one that does but it's too expensive by the time it's installed and tuned (over a grand).
If I can figure out a cheaper way to build the daughterboard that goes inside the reflashed ECU then I might be able to bring the price down.
-Michael
The trouble with an open source reflash is that someone has to do the work for free and give it away. I wish I could do like we did with the first honda stuff and give it away but at the end of the day I have to somehow put food on the table and pay for the electronics used to build the testbed for "cracking" the ECU - the equipment alone costs more than a new Ralliart.
I've been working on the reflash now a number of months. I have learned a great deal about how the ECU works and I know the reasons why no available piggyback will work correctly with it. I designed one that does but it's too expensive by the time it's installed and tuned (over a grand).
If I can figure out a cheaper way to build the daughterboard that goes inside the reflashed ECU then I might be able to bring the price down.
-Michael
I think that, if you want something to sell, figure out a way to make our ECU cooperate with existing reflashing software/hardware (ECUflash and Tactrix cable.) I think you'd find more people willing to pay for the ability to do their own flashes than those who'd want to do mail-ins.
#19
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Thread Starter
Also, I think you misspoke, but Split Second does make custom piggybacks that work with our car (the ones RRM sells.) IMO, you really have to come way down in price, even if your price includes free reflashes. Having to mail the ECU to you every time something needs to be tweaked is not feasible. It's easier to purchase the appropriate SS piggy and be able to tune it yourself.
Based on the parameters in the ECU it is very very difficult to come up with any piggyback and piggyback tune that will ever work. The trouble is that a set of sensors must all follow the same adjustment profile. If you change them +/- 7% you start getting check engines and trim problems. Unless you know exactly what it is you can't just twiddle one sensor and have it not screw up. What is the sense in having a piggyback that you can't tune then? That ends up being identical to a reflashed ECU except the reflashed ECU can be set for your vehicle and there is no cel or fuel trim issue.
-Michael
#21
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I think that, if you want something to sell, figure out a way to make our ECU cooperate with existing reflashing software/hardware (ECUflash and Tactrix cable.) I think you'd find more people willing to pay for the ability to do their own flashes than those who'd want to do mail-ins.
#22
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
Unfortunately if I spend 250-500 hours of labour figuring it out - that's typically on the low side of what it can take how do I get paid? Even if I got paid $10/hr that's like up to $5g. Running a business means if I don't get more like $60/hr then I can't afford to keep the lights on and pay the rent and that's not paying myself any wages either.
If someone did the work for free and gave it away then sure I'd use it to build a turbo map and an NA map but really I'd sell one of each. Once it's done it's going to work pretty well on pretty much any setup. With a MAF sensor the ECU will do a pretty good job of fuelling it properly no matter what mods you do.
-Michael
If someone did the work for free and gave it away then sure I'd use it to build a turbo map and an NA map but really I'd sell one of each. Once it's done it's going to work pretty well on pretty much any setup. With a MAF sensor the ECU will do a pretty good job of fuelling it properly no matter what mods you do.
-Michael
#23
Evolved Member
This is not for everyone. Not all of us has the ability to fine tune engine management systems. Hate to use this word but RRM for the longest time did not sell the tuning software with their piggyback....
Who this is for is someone that wants a good tune for a NA or turbo set up that will work hassle free. Not all of us want to have their piggy retuned every few months. I have been long term testing 2 piggies. First if the Haltech mini, great unit more settings to play with than the SS unit but you need to reload the tune every 2 months or so...Second is the SS and same thing great unit for what it does but every 3 months have to tweak it or reload the map. The fact is this friggin ECU is way more advanced than it needs to be and will eventually "See" any changes you make and try to go back to stock settings. With the piggies some take longer but the end result is the same, you will have to reload the map every so often.
Just my thoughts....
Who this is for is someone that wants a good tune for a NA or turbo set up that will work hassle free. Not all of us want to have their piggy retuned every few months. I have been long term testing 2 piggies. First if the Haltech mini, great unit more settings to play with than the SS unit but you need to reload the tune every 2 months or so...Second is the SS and same thing great unit for what it does but every 3 months have to tweak it or reload the map. The fact is this friggin ECU is way more advanced than it needs to be and will eventually "See" any changes you make and try to go back to stock settings. With the piggies some take longer but the end result is the same, you will have to reload the map every so often.
Just my thoughts....
#24
I see the befenits of a reflash vs a piggyback but you would be basically giving the same tune to everyone. We all live in different places, different mods...how is that gonna work out?
#25
Evolved Member
Hackish and others will correct me if i am wrong I am sure of it...lol.
#26
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
With a standalone you have to spend the hours duplicating the factory mapping. With a piggyback you have to try to fool the factory ECU into doing what you want but like most things it has unwanted side effects.
When you reprogram the ECU then you're changing the values themselves so it will never fight you to achieve something other than what you ask for. On the downside, cracking an ECU is very labour intensive business. You could spend a year learning to crack something and never figure it out.
Hope that helps.
#27
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Got an update guys. I've figured out a way to do this without requiring an expensive daughterboard. This takes almost $250 off my cost of doing a reflash. This means if people are willing I will be able to come in at about $450-$500USD. A little more reasonable.
-Michael
-Michael
#28
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a) ...make it turbo-ready?
"PnP"...you slap on bigger injectors, high-flow fuel pump, snail, and some piping, and you're good to go.
b) ...make it turbo-compatable?
Makes the ECU more turbo-friendly, so should you add a more traditional fueling setup (i.e. rising rate FPR), you don't get the closed-loop learning, etc. that plagues existing RA setups.
If a), you'd (obviously) have to tailor the product you ship back to your customer for his/her specific setup, as pointed out by otter. If b), this would still require a secondary mechanism (piggy, etc.) to be properly controlled and tweaked by the end user, thus increasing total cost.
...or does the system you propose have a happy medium between the two?
#29
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Thread Starter
The system is best described as "A". What people don't realize here is that since the system uses a MAF sensor it is very flexible. I know that many people purchased a kit for this vehicle and I've spoken with many who are on their 2nd or 3rd engine. I've also spoken with a number of tuners who have said "there is no effing way to make this thing work with a piggyback."
Since a MAF sensor reads the amount of air going into the engine then I will be scaling the injector constant so larger injectors will be fitted and work as stock. On many turbo cars from the factory you can add a few extras like exhaust and a few more PSI of boost. This is due to the fact that they inject an amount of fuel proportional to the amount of air that goes in. So if you install a huge turbo and it sees 300lb/min of air it will inject enough fuel for 300lb/min of air.
So the AFRs should be bang on the money. I will also adapt the open loop / closed loop circuit to work properly with turbos. With timing I will pull a conservative amount based on the fuel type. I think it will be able to run the engine and run it safely. No more check engine/ limp mode problems. No more fighting with the ECU's fuel trim. No more fuel system too rich/too lean codes.
-Michael
Since a MAF sensor reads the amount of air going into the engine then I will be scaling the injector constant so larger injectors will be fitted and work as stock. On many turbo cars from the factory you can add a few extras like exhaust and a few more PSI of boost. This is due to the fact that they inject an amount of fuel proportional to the amount of air that goes in. So if you install a huge turbo and it sees 300lb/min of air it will inject enough fuel for 300lb/min of air.
So the AFRs should be bang on the money. I will also adapt the open loop / closed loop circuit to work properly with turbos. With timing I will pull a conservative amount based on the fuel type. I think it will be able to run the engine and run it safely. No more check engine/ limp mode problems. No more fighting with the ECU's fuel trim. No more fuel system too rich/too lean codes.
-Michael
Last edited by hackish; Feb 5, 2009 at 12:05 PM. Reason: clarification