Webman

I'm currently considering moving up from my 09 GTS, to an 09 Ralliart. Yesterday I went to the dealer and finally test drove one of the ralliarts they had on the lot. Of course already being familiar with the car, I was able to focus on the differences (AWD, tc-sst, turbo). However, I noticed some strange things about the tc-sst that I'm not sure if I like, so I have some questions.

I've become very used to the CVT in my GTS. I more commonly drive it as a manual, just because i like having that control. I like how when down shifting to decelerate, it acts more like a stick than other automatics. However, when driving the ralliart yesterday, I noticed that when down shifting to decelerate, the car is actually pushing up the engine rpms to meet the clutch speed (as if I wanted to accelerate), rather than using the friction of the clutch to bring engine RPMs up, and speed down like in a regular manual tranny. Problem is, I didn't have enough time on the drive to really experiment fully with all 4 transmission modes (sport/normal in auto & manual). But my ultimate question is, does the transmission have a mode where it will act more like a manual tranny when down shifting while decelerating?

If I'm serious about buying this car, I will definitely be driving again. After driving my GTS this morning, I had this strange sensation that I liked the way the manual portion of the CVT reacted, better than the tc-sst. But I also think I'm missing something.

Runaround

iTrader: (2)

Not having ever driven any CVT this is somewhat a guess, but I suspect that the CVT works more like a sporty tuned automatic than an actual manual. The SST is doing what all manuals that are downshifted correctly are supposed to do. When you down shift it is blipping the throttle to avoid shocking the drivetrain. Once the RPM is up to where the it would be in the lower gear it will engage the gear and then you have the normal engine braking occuring. There is no jar or sudden deceleration that you get with sporty tuned autos / cvts.

If you ever watch any racing on TV, pay attention to the in-car cams. On race cars that have sequential gearboxes, you will noticed that every time they downshift the ECU automatically blips the engine. It happens much faster in the race cars just because there is less rotation weight in those engines, but they all do it. If you are watching a race that uses tradition manuals, you will notice that all the drivers will heel/toe on downshifts to manually blip the throttle.

To me, the only part of the SST that I had to get used to was the timing on when it would disengage the clutch when stopping. It feels like you are no longer stopping as fast for a sec. It's kind of annoying when the traffic is heavy stop and go, but once you get used the timing it's not a big deal.

Webman

I totally understand the throttle blip (equalizing engine rpms to tranny rpms). That's quite necessary for no-clutch down shifts on a sport bike, and makes for lightning quick shifts while on the track. However, in my case, I'll be driving the ralliart as a daily driver, and when I generally drive a stick vehicle, I tend to downshift and use clutch friction and engine braking to slow the vehicle, along with the brakes. What I see with the sst is that it's electronically blipping the throttle, rather than using the transmission and clutch friction to push the rpms up. When I downshift with the CVT, it's an immediate shift into the lower gear, using the transmission to push up the RPMs rather than using the throttle.

To me, electronically blipping the throttle on a downshift makes PERFECT sense in sport mode. However, in normal mode, I would expect it to act more like a standard manual tranny. Maybe it just takes some getting used to.

I'll also say, it was a very weird feeling not knowing how the clutch would engage all the time.

Q15H

iTrader: (5)

That will lead to very short clutch life. It's OK to use the engine for [mild] braking but you should stop using clutch friction for that. Replacing the brakes on the car is much less expensive than replacing the clutch.

I just want to point out that those race cars mentioned above are NOT using the engine for braking. They use the brakes for that.

The only reason they downshift is to be in the correct gear for exiting the corner, not for slowing the vehicle. Except perhaps for the victory lap.

Runaround

iTrader: (2)

In normal auto mode it works more like a standard automatic. It shifts as soon as possible and doesn't use the engine to brake the car at all. It only downshifts when the speed gets lower that is usable for the gear it is in, or you give it more than "normal" throttle. Basically it tries to keep RPMs below 3000, and as low as possible at all costs.

Sport auto mode is essentially opposite of that. It does all it can to keep RPMs above 3000. It will automatically downshift under braking to keep the revs up. It also increases the shift speed and decreases the clutch slipping between gears.

Webman

I would agree that it "may" lead to "shorter" clutch life, especially when downshifts are done improperly, or you drag the clutch forever. I learned to drive a manual while living in the boonies. Big trucks, and big hills. Using the engine and clutch together, to properly slow a larger vehicle, is key. So maybe that's just something I'm not used to, having a car with a manual. Actually, come to think of it, I've NEVER had a car with a manual tranny, lol. Besides, the clutches in the tc-sst are wet clutches, which means they can handle a lot more friction than a dry clutch.

Really, I'm just trying to understand the typical behavior of this thing compared to what I'm used to. I just want to be more prepared for the next test drive, so I can decide whether or not I want to make the jump, or maybe go as far as getting a base evo.

Euripides

Got a guy here where I live that has a blue EVO GSR, apparently he was going 200KPH on the highway, he downshifted, and the motor when pop....It was towed to the dealership, and the rod went through the side of the block , chunks of the block was found in the belly pan, metal shavings were found in the tranny, the whole motor/tranny was gone...quote for repairs was aprox 12g's.... NO WARRANTY!! customer abuse

Euripides

kinda off topic, but thought I would share

LittleJohny

I'll start by saying I'm not an owner. I think the ralliart is designed to downshift in the matter that you experienced. That is, it will blip the throttle to match engine revs. This is better for the clutch. So, in short, that is your answer.

jeraptor

When I leave the trans in Auto mode and normal (as opposed to sport) the car will let engine revs drop fairly low (maybe 1200) then shift down without blipping the throttle. This is as you described you like but probably not at as high an engine speed as you want. During this I can clearly detect that it is the clutch slowing the car.

Webman

Interesting. I definitely notice the same type of slowdown in my car. The CVT is somehow helping during the braking process. You can clearly feel the difference slowing while in gear, vs being in neutral. I'll have to feel for that in the ralliart.

desperado-c

What Runaround said makes sense. In sport mode you're gonna get rev matching throttle blips, but in normal mode it should be in gas saving mode keeping RPMs as low as possible when you're not on the throttle. Did you use the normal mode or just the sport?

Conor

Ehhhh. There's no real reason to ever downshift without rev-matching first. Doing anything else is improper driving and is hard on the clutch/drivetrain. You still engine-brake after the clutch re-engages the engine. I rev-match all downshifts in my daily driver.

Webman

Thank you everyone for all of your input. After over 6 hours at the dealership tonight, I purchased a 2008 Evo X MR with 6k miles on it. I drove around a Ralliart for a bit, then drove the evo, and was sold, of course. After getting to play with the sst for a bit longer, I really do like the way it operates. It's just a major difference in general feel and operation, compared to the CVT, even in manual mode.

I'm still in shock. I think I need to go to bed.

Euripides

Sweet decision, what did u end up paying for the EVO?