Ladogaboy

iTrader: (1)

IMO, the RA is too close to the EVO for them to add any reasonable amount of power to it. If anything, I think they have dropped the ball on the EVO, which in turn made them drop the ball on the RA. Given how much power people have been able to extract from the EVO X, I see no reason why it doesn't come from factory with about 350 hp. If it did, then they would be more than justified in releasing the RA with about 275 hp.

Metall1ca

iTrader: (1)

EVO could stay where it is and the RA could get about 250ish, i don't think that would infringe upon the evo too much.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

Or just increase the HP of the Evo as they're more than capable of. Hell, I don't think power is the problem, if they could shave some weight off the porker, they'd really be on to something.
I don't think it's really fair to compare the HP/performance per dollar of a car built now to a car built 10 years ago, 10 years is a lifetime as far as technology is concerned. As an obvious example, take a Corvette Z06 from today and compare it to Ferraris, Porsches, etc 10 years ago.

Ladogaboy

iTrader: (1)

From the looks of it, that is what the RA is probably putting out right now, with most dynos listing the whp at ~210. I don't want to get in a great debate over that number (though I know people are going to chime in with their two cents), but the stingiest dynos read in the 190s and the friendlier dynos read in the high 220s. Either way, assuming about 20% drivetrain loss, that does put the crank hp at about 250. That is already very close to the EVO X's 291 hp (which seems to be a more accurate rating).

Personally, I think the reason Mitsubishi didn't give the EVO X more power stock is because of the TC-SST. They didn't want to pony up for a more robust dual clutch tranny, so they had to limit the MR's output. Since the MR is the flagship, they couldn't justifiably release the GSR with a higher output. All the while, RA owners are stuck with the same limitations as the MR.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

And as we've been over before, an underrated Ralliart makes zero sense. If the car does indeed make 250 HP, the performance numbers (1/4 mile, 0-60) are crap. Mitsubishi would also have to be stupider than mud to intentionally downgrade the marketable HP on their car in a segment that is highly competitive, it would be suicide. You cannot pick an arbitrary number like 20% and apply it to whatever result you want, until you have a reference frame (ie. run many cars on the dyno to get a general idea of what the lose is), it's just a number. The way in which companies test HP has also changed, gone are the days where they can just run a car in some secret facility. If they want the results certified, a technician has to be on hand to make sure all the requirements are met. All accessories have to be on, including powersteering. This is why cars magically make a bit more power after the fact, people don't generally dyno their cars with the AC on. This is universal across the board so if the Ralliart is underrated, so is the Evo, the Cobalt, the Corvette, the Mazda3, etc.

Ladogaboy

iTrader: (1)

20% seems to be a generally accepted number for drivetrain power loss on an AWD. Obviously, it's an estimate, and not to be taken as gospel. As for reasons to understate power, we have discussed that as well too. It's widely acknowledged that the WRX's power was understated. Why? Because it's already hard enough justifying the purchase of an STI over a WRX when the WRX hits 60 mph faster. And let's face facts, that's what most end users are looking at. Throw in the fact that it is very close in power rating, and you have a recipe for a marketing disaster. I have worked for marketing driven companies, and I can tell you that honesty is one of the last thing they are looking for when they create brochures and publish information. When it comes to impinging on the sales numbers for another unit, they will lie through their teeth.

As for the 0-60 times on the RA not being commensurate with the power numbers: 1st, the RA is a heavy car for its rated 237 hp, and it would still be a heavy car even with 250 hp. 2nd, it can still hit 0-60 in under 6 seconds, putting it not too far behind the EVO X MR's 0-60 time (rated at 291 hp and similar in weight). 3rd, those numbers put the RA on very similar ground with the 07 WRX, which was rated at 224 hp, but over 200 lbs lighter with a manual transmission (launch control ).

All of the numbers make sense to me. BTW, we did one or two pulls on RRE's dyno with my A/C on, and it did not affect the hp numbers as much as you might think.

All I am saying is that marketing materials are not to be trusted, and the hp ratings in those marketing materials have probably been... "massaged".

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

Generally accepted means a generalization, it's not accurate and different dynos produce different results. As an example, local dynos show more of a 26% loss, or more.
The WRX is not underrated, at least not the 09. It hits 60 MPH faster because it's one shift (1st to second) and it's lighter, that's it. As I said, companies can't underrate power as easily as they could before.
If the Ralliart is making 13 more HP than advertised (under similar conditions), the performance numbers are made that much worse. You've also ignored the fact that the Ralliart is in competition with other cars, it would be marketing suicide to underrate a car in a market as saturated as the sport compact market. The 0-60 numbers are swayed a bit because of the AWD, the car can get out of the hole fast but look at the 1/4 mile times and trap speeds and the 0-100 MPH, fine for a 3500 lb car with 237 HP but not exactly fantastic if it has 250 HP.
This isn't the 60s and we're certainly not in Japan, companies can't get away with lying about numbers anymore.

Ladogaboy

iTrader: (1)

This is so cute. Really, I'm not being sarcastic. It makes me smile.

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

And it's true since there have to be independent observers present to get the numbers certified.

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

All I know is that rumor has it that the 2011 Ralliart AWD will have 5sp option and will be starting in the $25k range.

Ladogaboy

iTrader: (1)

Since we are all speculating right now, how much of a weight drop do you think the RA would see with a 5-speed manual? It seems like it would weigh just a little more than the WRX right now... maybe 3,300?

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

Should be about the same as the evo 8-9

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

I doubt it'll drop that much, the difference between the MR and GSR is 77 lbs (3594 vs 3517) and I suspect some of the MR goodies actually make it a bit lighter than it should be. I'm guessing it'll drop down to 3400 even or just slightly under. Getting down to the WRX's 3168 is going to be pretty damn hard.

Fourdoor

iTrader: (11)

Ummmm, not really wanting to re-visit this are you? The drag strip numbers back up the dyno claims, and that sent you into a tizzy about how it is impossible to judge HP from track times.... so don't go using track times to try and de-bunk the HP claims of people who have used a dyno. You can't have it both ways.

Keith

ambystom01

iTrader: (7)

Your 1/4 mile times based on a formula a suspect website gave supported it, sure, but that's like saying the tea leaves supported a claim that the moon is made of cheese. Also, as I said, the way in which HP is measured has changed, all accessories have to be on and active. This means when you turn off those accessories, the power is magically higher. If the HP is indeed 237 HP, the stock track times are fine but if the car is making more, they're not that good anymore. Nobody has explained how any of this makes sense given the competitive market that the Ralliart competes in.
" I have an idea, lets take a car that is middle of the pack for its market and purposely lie about the HP numbers, that'll boost sales."
Edit: I just used that 1/4 mile formula you posted with a stock 08 GTS. According to it, it either has 146 HP or 164, which is it (stock 08 is rated at 152 HP)? The same with a stock Mazda3 s, it produces either 165 or 180 HP (it's rated at 167 HP) and a stock 09 WRX has either 259 HP or 253 HP (it has 265 HP). Using a published 1/4 mile time for the Ralliart (14.4), I got a HP rating of 242 or 245 HP, the claimed is 237.