Motor Trend - Spring Chickens
Mar 12, 2010, 08:43 AM
#77
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^ I disagree. The RA may not be the best car out of the 4 (in stock form), but for me it is still the better buy and it's what I'd pick.
1.) GTI - can't stand the wheels, not as mod friendly as WRX & RA, dig the styling though
2.) MS3 - styling is kinda "teenager"-ish, big torque steer
3.) WRX - very mod friendly, it's what I'd pick next to the RA, not a fan of the styling
4.) RA - love the styling, love the tranny, very mod friendly, tires are crap but can be easily changed
1.) GTI - can't stand the wheels, not as mod friendly as WRX & RA, dig the styling though
2.) MS3 - styling is kinda "teenager"-ish, big torque steer
3.) WRX - very mod friendly, it's what I'd pick next to the RA, not a fan of the styling
4.) RA - love the styling, love the tranny, very mod friendly, tires are crap but can be easily changed
Last edited by tipoytm; Mar 12, 2010 at 10:18 AM.
Mar 14, 2010, 03:04 AM
#82
The WRX had factory modifications you can have installed at the time you buy the car. They were SPT part and were basically show. The only parts that may have added a touch of performance are the catback exhaust (I doubt it actually did anything other than make the car louder) and the two chassis braces. Given that they're options on the car, I would hardly call it a biased review.
Mar 15, 2010, 07:20 AM
#83
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On page 6 of that article it has the Subaru at 275hp and 254 lb ft of torque.
On Subarus website it states for the 2010 Subaru Impreza WRX Premuim:
Engine 2.5-liter DOHC intercooled, turbocharged aluminum-alloy 16-valve 4-cylinder horizontally opposed SUBARU BOXER® engine Power 265-hp @ 6,000 rpm Torque 244 lb-ft @ 4,000 rpm Compression Ratio 8.4:1 Bore and Stroke 99.5 x 79.0 mm Fuel and Ignition System Sequential multiport fuel injection. Electronic Throttle Control (ETC). Engine management with integrated self-diagnostics and adaptive driving habits capability. Direct Ignition. SI-DRIVE Performance Management System Not available Valve Timing Active Valve Control System (AVCS) Intake System Turbocharger with intercooler. Maximum boost pressure: 14.2 psi Manual Transmission Fully synchronized 5-speed manual with Incline Start Assist Emissions Certified Low Emission Vehicle (LEV2)
So obviously the Subaru was not in "stock" form. Nor did it have parts for "show."
From the article:
We mentioned the WRX was slightly modified and here's the deal: Subaru had but one WRX hatchback in fleet and it happened to be fitted with a handful of Subaru Performance Tuning (SPT) parts. Some of the add-ons, such as a $370 front lip spoiler and a $170 STI shift knob, were more aesthetic than functional but most -- $820 cat-back exhaust system (adds roughly 10 horsepower and 10 pound-feet), $295 short-throw shifter, $25 STI shifter bushing, $230 front strut tower brace, $200 lower chassis brace -- played some role in enhancing performance. Compared with the '09 WRX in our last comparison, the '10 SPT delivers superior lateral acceleration (0.89 g versus 0.85) and 60-to-0 braking (102 feet versus 113) at the test track.
So 10hp, 10 lb ft torque, short throw shifter, and body stiffening can just be ignored against fully stock cars?
It's only valid if the MS3, GTI and RA all have the similar mods. you can't have a valid experiment with no control.
That is just sloppy work...
On Subarus website it states for the 2010 Subaru Impreza WRX Premuim:
Engine 2.5-liter DOHC intercooled, turbocharged aluminum-alloy 16-valve 4-cylinder horizontally opposed SUBARU BOXER® engine Power 265-hp @ 6,000 rpm Torque 244 lb-ft @ 4,000 rpm Compression Ratio 8.4:1 Bore and Stroke 99.5 x 79.0 mm Fuel and Ignition System Sequential multiport fuel injection. Electronic Throttle Control (ETC). Engine management with integrated self-diagnostics and adaptive driving habits capability. Direct Ignition. SI-DRIVE Performance Management System Not available Valve Timing Active Valve Control System (AVCS) Intake System Turbocharger with intercooler. Maximum boost pressure: 14.2 psi Manual Transmission Fully synchronized 5-speed manual with Incline Start Assist Emissions Certified Low Emission Vehicle (LEV2)
So obviously the Subaru was not in "stock" form. Nor did it have parts for "show."
From the article:
We mentioned the WRX was slightly modified and here's the deal: Subaru had but one WRX hatchback in fleet and it happened to be fitted with a handful of Subaru Performance Tuning (SPT) parts. Some of the add-ons, such as a $370 front lip spoiler and a $170 STI shift knob, were more aesthetic than functional but most -- $820 cat-back exhaust system (adds roughly 10 horsepower and 10 pound-feet), $295 short-throw shifter, $25 STI shifter bushing, $230 front strut tower brace, $200 lower chassis brace -- played some role in enhancing performance. Compared with the '09 WRX in our last comparison, the '10 SPT delivers superior lateral acceleration (0.89 g versus 0.85) and 60-to-0 braking (102 feet versus 113) at the test track.
It's only valid if the MS3, GTI and RA all have the similar mods. you can't have a valid experiment with no control.
That is just sloppy work...
Mar 15, 2010, 07:51 AM
#84
On page 6 of that article it has the Subaru at 275hp and 254 lb ft of torque.
On Subarus website it states for the 2010 Subaru Impreza WRX Premuim:
Engine 2.5-liter DOHC intercooled, turbocharged aluminum-alloy 16-valve 4-cylinder horizontally opposed SUBARU BOXER® engine Power 265-hp @ 6,000 rpm Torque 244 lb-ft @ 4,000 rpm Compression Ratio 8.4:1 Bore and Stroke 99.5 x 79.0 mm Fuel and Ignition System Sequential multiport fuel injection. Electronic Throttle Control (ETC). Engine management with integrated self-diagnostics and adaptive driving habits capability. Direct Ignition. SI-DRIVE Performance Management System Not available Valve Timing Active Valve Control System (AVCS) Intake System Turbocharger with intercooler. Maximum boost pressure: 14.2 psi Manual Transmission Fully synchronized 5-speed manual with Incline Start Assist Emissions Certified Low Emission Vehicle (LEV2)
So obviously the Subaru was not in "stock" form. Nor did it have parts for "show."
From the article:
We mentioned the WRX was slightly modified and here's the deal: Subaru had but one WRX hatchback in fleet and it happened to be fitted with a handful of Subaru Performance Tuning (SPT) parts. Some of the add-ons, such as a $370 front lip spoiler and a $170 STI shift knob, were more aesthetic than functional but most -- $820 cat-back exhaust system (adds roughly 10 horsepower and 10 pound-feet), $295 short-throw shifter, $25 STI shifter bushing, $230 front strut tower brace, $200 lower chassis brace -- played some role in enhancing performance. Compared with the '09 WRX in our last comparison, the '10 SPT delivers superior lateral acceleration (0.89 g versus 0.85) and 60-to-0 braking (102 feet versus 113) at the test track.
So 10hp, 10 lb ft torque, short throw shifter, and body stiffening can just be ignored against fully stock cars?
It's only valid if the MS3, GTI and RA all have the similar mods. you can't have a valid experiment with no control.
That is just sloppy work...
On Subarus website it states for the 2010 Subaru Impreza WRX Premuim:
Engine 2.5-liter DOHC intercooled, turbocharged aluminum-alloy 16-valve 4-cylinder horizontally opposed SUBARU BOXER® engine Power 265-hp @ 6,000 rpm Torque 244 lb-ft @ 4,000 rpm Compression Ratio 8.4:1 Bore and Stroke 99.5 x 79.0 mm Fuel and Ignition System Sequential multiport fuel injection. Electronic Throttle Control (ETC). Engine management with integrated self-diagnostics and adaptive driving habits capability. Direct Ignition. SI-DRIVE Performance Management System Not available Valve Timing Active Valve Control System (AVCS) Intake System Turbocharger with intercooler. Maximum boost pressure: 14.2 psi Manual Transmission Fully synchronized 5-speed manual with Incline Start Assist Emissions Certified Low Emission Vehicle (LEV2)
So obviously the Subaru was not in "stock" form. Nor did it have parts for "show."
From the article:
We mentioned the WRX was slightly modified and here's the deal: Subaru had but one WRX hatchback in fleet and it happened to be fitted with a handful of Subaru Performance Tuning (SPT) parts. Some of the add-ons, such as a $370 front lip spoiler and a $170 STI shift knob, were more aesthetic than functional but most -- $820 cat-back exhaust system (adds roughly 10 horsepower and 10 pound-feet), $295 short-throw shifter, $25 STI shifter bushing, $230 front strut tower brace, $200 lower chassis brace -- played some role in enhancing performance. Compared with the '09 WRX in our last comparison, the '10 SPT delivers superior lateral acceleration (0.89 g versus 0.85) and 60-to-0 braking (102 feet versus 113) at the test track.
It's only valid if the MS3, GTI and RA all have the similar mods. you can't have a valid experiment with no control.
That is just sloppy work...
The modifications are available from the factory and are not applicable to some cars. How are they going to install a short throw shifter on the Ralliart, smaller paddles? You cannot honestly think it's fair to get mad at a manufacturer for providing additional parts for it's vehicles. Should they also limit the Ralliart to the base package to make it fair to the other cars that don't have Recaros as an option?
If the modifications directly affected their conclusions, you'd have a point but they don't. The WRX doesn't even come in first, it comes in third just ahead of the Ralliart. This should not come as a shock to anyone that has kept up to date on the results of other tests. I've yet to see the Ralliart rank above the cars tested in this review just as I've yet to see the WRX come in first when the MS3 is present.
Mar 15, 2010, 08:25 AM
#85
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What I am saying is that modifications contaminate the results. It's simple scientific method.
It doesn't make a difference if they felt a difference or what not. It's a slippery slope. Why not just put GSR rims and 235's on the RA, let's put a SRI on the GTI, lets add and exhaust to the MS3?
Obviously the SPT upgrades changed the braking, acceleration G's, the shifter changes stock shift times and the exhaust changes stock power ratings. I do agree that 10 and 10 gains from the exhaust may be a little fabricated by SPT haha, but they do still make at least some difference.
I'm not mad at Subaru at all for providing the parts, I love it! The problem is that you have to have a constant, if three of the cars have no changes from stock ratings, and one does have modifications from the stock ratings, how can the results not be skewed?
You can't have valid results with inconsistent variables like that. That is where I think the reviewers failed.
As for modding the RA, haha no, not smaller paddles, but they would have to add an exhaust, and chassis stiffening to even the field, the same goes with the MS3 and the GTI.
It doesn't make a difference if they felt a difference or what not. It's a slippery slope. Why not just put GSR rims and 235's on the RA, let's put a SRI on the GTI, lets add and exhaust to the MS3?
Obviously the SPT upgrades changed the braking, acceleration G's, the shifter changes stock shift times and the exhaust changes stock power ratings. I do agree that 10 and 10 gains from the exhaust may be a little fabricated by SPT haha, but they do still make at least some difference.
I'm not mad at Subaru at all for providing the parts, I love it! The problem is that you have to have a constant, if three of the cars have no changes from stock ratings, and one does have modifications from the stock ratings, how can the results not be skewed?
You can't have valid results with inconsistent variables like that. That is where I think the reviewers failed.
As for modding the RA, haha no, not smaller paddles, but they would have to add an exhaust, and chassis stiffening to even the field, the same goes with the MS3 and the GTI.
Mar 15, 2010, 08:37 AM
#86
What I am saying is that modifications contaminate the results. It's simple scientific method.
It doesn't make a difference if they felt a difference or what not. It's a slippery slope. Why not just put GSR rims and 235's on the RA, let's put a SRI on the GTI, lets add and exhaust to the MS3?
Obviously the SPT upgrades changed the braking, acceleration G's, the shifter changes stock shift times and the exhaust changes stock power ratings. I do agree that 10 and 10 gains from the exhaust may be a little fabricated by SPT haha, but they do still make at least some difference.
I'm not mad at Subaru at all for providing the parts, I love it! The problem is that you have to have a constant, if three of the cars have no changes from stock ratings, and one does have modifications from the stock ratings, how can the results not be skewed?
You can't have valid results with inconsistent variables like that. That is where I think the reviewers failed.
As for modding the RA, haha no, not smaller paddles, but they would have to add an exhaust, and chassis stiffening to even the field, the same goes with the MS3 and the GTI.
It doesn't make a difference if they felt a difference or what not. It's a slippery slope. Why not just put GSR rims and 235's on the RA, let's put a SRI on the GTI, lets add and exhaust to the MS3?
Obviously the SPT upgrades changed the braking, acceleration G's, the shifter changes stock shift times and the exhaust changes stock power ratings. I do agree that 10 and 10 gains from the exhaust may be a little fabricated by SPT haha, but they do still make at least some difference.
I'm not mad at Subaru at all for providing the parts, I love it! The problem is that you have to have a constant, if three of the cars have no changes from stock ratings, and one does have modifications from the stock ratings, how can the results not be skewed?
You can't have valid results with inconsistent variables like that. That is where I think the reviewers failed.
As for modding the RA, haha no, not smaller paddles, but they would have to add an exhaust, and chassis stiffening to even the field, the same goes with the MS3 and the GTI.
If Mitsubishi provided factory upgrades for the Ralliart, this wouldn't be an issue. I'm sure people would have no problem if the Ralliart came with a catback exhaust given that quite a few people had no issue when Edmunds did exactly as you suggest, aftermarket modify the Ralliart and compare it to a bone stock car.
We do not know if the SPT parts are responsible for the changes observed. Undeniably the short shifter shortened the shifts but as someone who has an SPT short shifter, it isn't a dramatic improvement, at least not enough to sway my opinion of the car as a whole (ie. the SPT shifter would not be the deciding factor on whether I would buy the car).
As I said, their power claims regarding the exhaust are highly optimistic and while it may have done something, the gains were likely not enough to make a noticeable difference. If it only increased the power by 4 HP, that's not enough to feel and is within the factory variable range. What it does do though is make the car louder which could sway their subjective opinion, but it appears that it did not.
The chassis bracing may have helped handling but I suspect that the majority of the change they're reporting is the result of doing the test on a different day. I haven't had a chance to look at the other car's numbers and compare them to previous tests but I'm guessing there will be a difference. I do not see how the chassis braces could have changed the braking in the way it did given that chassis bracing doesn't reduce body roll or dive.
Why is it unfair to equip a car with factory options? Should we essentially equalize all the cars across the field? I guess they'd have to add Recaros to all the cars to make it far right? A better stereo?
Mar 15, 2010, 10:16 AM
#87
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Really? I was reading up about it last year (was considering a 2.0T VW CC, same engine). Based on a couple of VW forums, I got the impression that it doesn't have anywhere near the aftermarket support and tuning capabilities of the 4B11T...
Mar 15, 2010, 10:53 AM
#88
I def agree nowhere near 4b11t - an ecu tune takes it to 250hp and 290 lb ft of torque (crank of course) and there are tons of mods out for the motor. also hear its pretty stout. this just from research i did looking up that car or the ms3 (ms3 motor likes to pop from nothing)
Mar 15, 2010, 10:56 AM
#89
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The results are contaminated because on the performance side, none of the cars have mods and the Subaru does. And Yes, if they wanted to be fully equal in regards to performance, they should only use base versions. The version that they mention in the brochure, website, commercial, etc. Then to evaluate option packages, they can add all the factory parts they want to and compare. The problem here, is the problem I have been stating for the last week. It is not a problem with what the cars have, or my like or dislike for the RA or any of the other cars. It is the methodology with which the results are attained. If people wanted to be considered professional, then they should do things correctly. I.E. using a complete methodology. Not just saying "well that's the only Subaru we could get so oh well." If that's the case, then find a way to factor that into the end result.
And Yes, if Mazda, VW and Mitsu, offered factory parts, I would say the same thing. Even if they all did, it would make no sense to just mix and match different parts on each car and then judge them, They would all need to be the same parts.
Someone please close this thread........
haha I can't believe I'm beating the saaaaaaaaame dead horse but this time, instead of on the Subie side I now have a Mitsu...
It's all moot.
Everybody just buy what you want.
The same way movie reviews are worthless, so are car reviews. People will buy what is best for them and reviewers will be lazy and misinform. Oh well....I have better things to do...Like mod the car I did buy......
And Yes, if Mazda, VW and Mitsu, offered factory parts, I would say the same thing. Even if they all did, it would make no sense to just mix and match different parts on each car and then judge them, They would all need to be the same parts.
Someone please close this thread........
haha I can't believe I'm beating the saaaaaaaaame dead horse but this time, instead of on the Subie side I now have a Mitsu...
It's all moot.
Everybody just buy what you want.
The same way movie reviews are worthless, so are car reviews. People will buy what is best for them and reviewers will be lazy and misinform. Oh well....I have better things to do...Like mod the car I did buy......
Mar 15, 2010, 01:55 PM
#90
Evolving Member
who cares you guys sound as if you go racing every weekend. Subys are so played out take you ralliart to Colorado Springs CO. everyone and there grandmother drives a subaru.
Me and some dude in an EVO were the only ones with new ::Mitsu::
I bought it for its uniqueness not its track time that i will never see here in cali unless i feel like going Laguna Seca or drifting with friends.
Me and some dude in an EVO were the only ones with new ::Mitsu::
I bought it for its uniqueness not its track time that i will never see here in cali unless i feel like going Laguna Seca or drifting with friends.