Cobb Tuning 93 and E85 Evo X Swap
Jun 27, 2011, 03:24 PM
#31
Or you could lower your peak torque and save yourself a huge chunk of cash and headaches and have just as much fun with the car and keep your bank account.
I currently run OEM clutches, OEM fluid, OEM cooler, OEM catback and 380whp on a true low reading mustang dyno.
With the SST, it's all about tuning strategy. If you want to go big, you need to dish out the cash, but if you are smart about your power tuning strategy, you can have a powerful RA, perfect for the street, without breaking the bank.
While it can be fun to post cool dyno graphs, it loses it's fun factor and causes frustration if you can't actually use it properly, as you have found out.
Obviously it's up to you on which path you want to take.
I currently run OEM clutches, OEM fluid, OEM cooler, OEM catback and 380whp on a true low reading mustang dyno.
With the SST, it's all about tuning strategy. If you want to go big, you need to dish out the cash, but if you are smart about your power tuning strategy, you can have a powerful RA, perfect for the street, without breaking the bank.
While it can be fun to post cool dyno graphs, it loses it's fun factor and causes frustration if you can't actually use it properly, as you have found out.
Obviously it's up to you on which path you want to take.
Last edited by razorlab; Jun 27, 2011 at 03:26 PM.
Jun 27, 2011, 06:34 PM
#32
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sorry... feeling a bit lazy....
cliffs?
n/m ... i think ... maybe a re-explanation of what you just said is in order??
lolwut?
Makes sense, and good to know that they don't try to up sell you on the bigger one when you don't really need it...
lost me here ... Transmissions don't produce power... let alone produce more torque than the engine can handle?!?!?
makes sense again...
on second thought, maybe cliffs are needed?
Or i could just go with what Bryan said
cliffs?
n/m ... i think ... maybe a re-explanation of what you just said is in order??
lolwut?
I called up SSP to ask more details on what they thought about the clutch matter. It seems like running anything over my current Torque would destroy my motor because the 4b11t is no where near as powerful has what the SST can do (explained below). He also stated that it would seem more accurate for the wtq to be at about 360-370wtq (guess cobb does have a higher reading Mustang ). He said that if I was truly at 400wtq, then I would have some serious issues coming my way from what the stock clutches AND motor can actually handle.
Then, he told me something that blew my mind. I always see everyone getting 600hp clutch packs, but he said if this is your daily driver and you want to get the MOST out of your clutch packs, go for the 500hp. The 600hp pack has a low life expectancy and is primarily for "blow yo **** up" type mods, meaning motor upgrade and bigger than FP Black type turbos. The 600hp pack does hold the claps harder, but the 500hp can be modded to hold just as good (not on par, but enough to maintain everything property). Yes this does mean 500hp will be more than enough for anything you plan to do with your car. He said the 500hp pack can hold up to about 560ish whp, but no more than 400wtq is recommended. He said that the issue with the SST tranny is the internals go bad before the clutches do, and they are in the prototype phase of creating more reinforced ones. They should be out later this year or next year.
Now keep in mind, I didn't say the 600hp pack was garbage, its just that the 500hp is more practical if this is your daily driver or you aren't running heavy duty expensive mods. Let alone the fact the tranny can be modded to help grab the clutches slightly better with just the 500hp is more than enough for me.
Then, he told me something that blew my mind. I always see everyone getting 600hp clutch packs, but he said if this is your daily driver and you want to get the MOST out of your clutch packs, go for the 500hp. The 600hp pack has a low life expectancy and is primarily for "blow yo **** up" type mods, meaning motor upgrade and bigger than FP Black type turbos. The 600hp pack does hold the claps harder, but the 500hp can be modded to hold just as good (not on par, but enough to maintain everything property). Yes this does mean 500hp will be more than enough for anything you plan to do with your car. He said the 500hp pack can hold up to about 560ish whp, but no more than 400wtq is recommended. He said that the issue with the SST tranny is the internals go bad before the clutches do, and they are in the prototype phase of creating more reinforced ones. They should be out later this year or next year.
Now keep in mind, I didn't say the 600hp pack was garbage, its just that the 500hp is more practical if this is your daily driver or you aren't running heavy duty expensive mods. Let alone the fact the tranny can be modded to help grab the clutches slightly better with just the 500hp is more than enough for me.
Also, 360wtq range (low reading mustang) is ALL the 4b11t can handle while equiped with the SST tranny. The dual clutch pushes so much power that the motor sometimes has issues keeping up at high torque levels. Anything over 360wtq (low mustang) and the motor's rods start to get wear and tear fast. Once you start to hit over 360wtq, its time to start upgrading the motor, or risk building a whole new one. He even stated that with the SST tranny, the difference between 400wtq and 430 wtq, although its such as small gap, is a whole new world of torque.
Oh, and ofcourse, a transcooler is mandatory for 350wtq+ if you plan to road course or drag race. If you are at one of these events, he recommended if your running a small batter kit to start your car up occasionally to make sure your battery doesn't die because a transcooler takes up quite a bit of power. SSP even has the option to give you a switch that would allow you to turn the transcooler on or off so it can be used only when needed. So during your DD, you can keep it off, but at the track, turn it on, and keep it on.
Let me know what you guys think. It looks to me if you stay at an RA turbo, your fine, but once you start to upgrade this car past it, you're looking at some serious cash to be sending.
Let me know what you guys think. It looks to me if you stay at an RA turbo, your fine, but once you start to upgrade this car past it, you're looking at some serious cash to be sending.
on second thought, maybe cliffs are needed?
Or i could just go with what Bryan said
Last edited by nunyas; Jun 27, 2011 at 07:04 PM.
Jun 28, 2011, 08:51 AM
#33
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sorry... feeling a bit lazy....
cliffs?
n/m ... i think ... maybe a re-explanation of what you just said is in order??
lolwut?
Makes sense, and good to know that they don't try to up sell you on the bigger one when you don't really need it...
lost me here ... Transmissions don't produce power... let alone produce more torque than the engine can handle?!?!?
makes sense again...
on second thought, maybe cliffs are needed?
Or i could just go with what Bryan said
cliffs?
n/m ... i think ... maybe a re-explanation of what you just said is in order??
lolwut?
Makes sense, and good to know that they don't try to up sell you on the bigger one when you don't really need it...
lost me here ... Transmissions don't produce power... let alone produce more torque than the engine can handle?!?!?
makes sense again...
on second thought, maybe cliffs are needed?
Or i could just go with what Bryan said
The SST tranny is special and can't be compared to some $3k tranny you'd find in a camry or mustang. Per SSP this transmission is stronger than the motor and can produce enough power to blow it. Anything 400wtq or more on a low mustang dyno and you're looking to get a new motor pretty soon. These are tests that have been ran on their MRs and they have explained these things in great details. MRs have S-Sport mode, which only grabs the discs 15% harder than Sport mode, that's why they don't have issue as bad as Ralliarts do.
What I meant by the torque amounts is that with the SST 400wtq and 430wtq are actually far and wide in comparison.
I do plan to lower my torque a bit, but my update is there for people interested in taking their car to the next level and knowing what issues they are going to come across if they go these routes.
Jun 28, 2011, 09:18 AM
#34
Lol droid phones are famous for correcting words. I meant man oh man.
The SST tranny is special and can't be compared to some $3k tranny you'd find in a camry or mustang. Per SSP this transmission is stronger than the motor and can produce enough power to blow it. Anything 400wtq or more on a low mustang dyno and you're looking to get a new motor pretty soon. These are tests that have been ran on their MRs and they have explained these things in great details. MRs have S-Sport mode, which only grabs the discs 15% harder than Sport mode, that's why they don't have issue as bad as Ralliarts do.
What I meant by the torque amounts is that with the SST 400wtq and 430wtq are actually far and wide in comparison.
I do plan to lower my torque a bit, but my update is there for people interested in taking their car to the next level and knowing what issues they are going to come across if they go these routes.
The SST tranny is special and can't be compared to some $3k tranny you'd find in a camry or mustang. Per SSP this transmission is stronger than the motor and can produce enough power to blow it. Anything 400wtq or more on a low mustang dyno and you're looking to get a new motor pretty soon. These are tests that have been ran on their MRs and they have explained these things in great details. MRs have S-Sport mode, which only grabs the discs 15% harder than Sport mode, that's why they don't have issue as bad as Ralliarts do.
What I meant by the torque amounts is that with the SST 400wtq and 430wtq are actually far and wide in comparison.
I do plan to lower my torque a bit, but my update is there for people interested in taking their car to the next level and knowing what issues they are going to come across if they go these routes.
400wtq on a proper Mustang is danger zone for the 4B11, no matter the transmission, 5spd Manual or 6spd SST.
You are correct that the different modes in SST create higher clamp pressure. S-Sport > Sport > Normal.
Last edited by razorlab; Jun 28, 2011 at 09:20 AM.
Jun 28, 2011, 09:41 AM
#35
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I think something is getting lost in translation here. 400tq is 400tq, as long there is there is no slip between the transmission and the crank, the motor is going to see the exact same amount of torque (and stress), no matter the transmission.
400wtq on a proper Mustang is danger zone for the 4B11, no matter the transmission, 5spd Manual or 6spd SST.
You are correct that the different modes in SST create higher clamp pressure. S-Sport > Sport > Normal.
400wtq on a proper Mustang is danger zone for the 4B11, no matter the transmission, 5spd Manual or 6spd SST.
You are correct that the different modes in SST create higher clamp pressure. S-Sport > Sport > Normal.
Lol its like the way he explained kinda made me scared what was gonna happen next with this tranny. That may be where I got lost. But just as you stated, the 4b11 can't take 400wtq+
Last edited by Krisko; Jun 28, 2011 at 10:24 AM.
Jul 7, 2011, 09:21 PM
#36
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UPDATE:
So I went down to Cobb for the first Thursday meets and the lead tuner changed the 1st gear limiter a bit in the higher rpms. I don't remember the actual rpm amounts (if someone has a table, that would help). For those of you who don't know, the throttle is open 100% at all RPM ranges in a Ralliart, as where in the MR it's not. I believe in the mid RPM range it jumps around from 40-80%, which is noticeable if you ever drive an MR on the stock transmission throttle setup. They gave me 2 maps, and I'll explain each:
1st map:
Throttle is 100% from 0-6500rpms/7000rpms is 90%/7500rpms set to 40%. This means the throttle response will start to close and allow the car to shift immediately upon hitting that range. I brake boosted to 3000rpms and launched it. The car immediately goes to 4000rpms, stays there for about .5 of a second, then jumps to 8000rpms and shifts perfectly each gear into redline. No slippage what so ever. We did about 4 test runs in both auto and manual sport mode with the ASC off. Both modes did the same thing.
What I didn't like was the car having a noticeable turbo lag at 4000rpms, because the program on his laptop even showed the car not getting full boost until 4000rpms, so it wasn't just something I thought was screwy in my head. However, it did feel like Sport/Auto was much faster than Sport/Manual. Weird.
2nd map:
Throttle is 100% from 0-6000rpms, 90% at 6500rpms, 50% at 7000rpms, and I believe 48% on 7500rpms. Launched at 3000rpms and the shifts were perfect, but alot faster... the was shifting around 6500rpms rather than its normal higher amount, but man, did 5th gear come in no time flat. This, too, was done in both sport auto/manual mode. Both modes launched the same even by manual shifting at red line.
Before I continue, I should explain brake boosting with an evo x turbo on E85 gas is no where near the same as doing it on an RA turbo with 93 octane. The torque is so much more that trying to feather to 3000rpms only takes 2 presses of the gas pedal, where the RA turbo took about 4-6 presses. Doing 4-6 hits ran me up to 5000rpms, which i didn't want to do.
Dallas is a hot city, and my intake temperatures ran up to about 160 degrees, which would shut the turbo down from heat soak every time I would try to launch.
I'm going to take the car out to the drag strip next week and see what which map works best for me. I'm also starting to learn that the stock GSR tires are terrible and not a good thing to drag on
So I went down to Cobb for the first Thursday meets and the lead tuner changed the 1st gear limiter a bit in the higher rpms. I don't remember the actual rpm amounts (if someone has a table, that would help). For those of you who don't know, the throttle is open 100% at all RPM ranges in a Ralliart, as where in the MR it's not. I believe in the mid RPM range it jumps around from 40-80%, which is noticeable if you ever drive an MR on the stock transmission throttle setup. They gave me 2 maps, and I'll explain each:
1st map:
Throttle is 100% from 0-6500rpms/7000rpms is 90%/7500rpms set to 40%. This means the throttle response will start to close and allow the car to shift immediately upon hitting that range. I brake boosted to 3000rpms and launched it. The car immediately goes to 4000rpms, stays there for about .5 of a second, then jumps to 8000rpms and shifts perfectly each gear into redline. No slippage what so ever. We did about 4 test runs in both auto and manual sport mode with the ASC off. Both modes did the same thing.
What I didn't like was the car having a noticeable turbo lag at 4000rpms, because the program on his laptop even showed the car not getting full boost until 4000rpms, so it wasn't just something I thought was screwy in my head. However, it did feel like Sport/Auto was much faster than Sport/Manual. Weird.
2nd map:
Throttle is 100% from 0-6000rpms, 90% at 6500rpms, 50% at 7000rpms, and I believe 48% on 7500rpms. Launched at 3000rpms and the shifts were perfect, but alot faster... the was shifting around 6500rpms rather than its normal higher amount, but man, did 5th gear come in no time flat. This, too, was done in both sport auto/manual mode. Both modes launched the same even by manual shifting at red line.
Before I continue, I should explain brake boosting with an evo x turbo on E85 gas is no where near the same as doing it on an RA turbo with 93 octane. The torque is so much more that trying to feather to 3000rpms only takes 2 presses of the gas pedal, where the RA turbo took about 4-6 presses. Doing 4-6 hits ran me up to 5000rpms, which i didn't want to do.
Dallas is a hot city, and my intake temperatures ran up to about 160 degrees, which would shut the turbo down from heat soak every time I would try to launch.
I'm going to take the car out to the drag strip next week and see what which map works best for me. I'm also starting to learn that the stock GSR tires are terrible and not a good thing to drag on
Last edited by Krisko; Jul 7, 2011 at 09:24 PM.
Jul 7, 2011, 11:10 PM
#37
I believe you aren't explaining this correctly, the throttle does not close on the RA in 1st gear. You can see (and prove this) by logging.
I think they changed something and that it got lost in translation.
What it sounds like is that the tuner changed your throttle mapping to decrease (from OEM) your throttle plate in 1st gear to limit torque so the car would shift.
That is one way to do it, and their is more then one way to skin a cat, I hate that term but it applies here well. This strategy wouldn't work well with larger turbos.
I think they changed something and that it got lost in translation.
What it sounds like is that the tuner changed your throttle mapping to decrease (from OEM) your throttle plate in 1st gear to limit torque so the car would shift.
That is one way to do it, and their is more then one way to skin a cat, I hate that term but it applies here well. This strategy wouldn't work well with larger turbos.
Last edited by razorlab; Jul 7, 2011 at 11:15 PM.
Jul 8, 2011, 06:02 AM
#38
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I believe you aren't explaining this correctly, the throttle does not close on the RA in 1st gear. You can see (and prove this) by logging.
I think they changed something and that it got lost in translation.
What it sounds like is that the tuner changed your throttle mapping to decrease (from OEM) your throttle plate in 1st gear to limit torque so the car would shift.
That is one way to do it, and their is more then one way to skin a cat, I hate that term but it applies here well. This strategy wouldn't work well with larger turbos.
I think they changed something and that it got lost in translation.
What it sounds like is that the tuner changed your throttle mapping to decrease (from OEM) your throttle plate in 1st gear to limit torque so the car would shift.
That is one way to do it, and their is more then one way to skin a cat, I hate that term but it applies here well. This strategy wouldn't work well with larger turbos.
Jul 10, 2011, 02:44 PM
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MAP 2 UPDATE -
I did a few runs on it, and for some odd reason my 60' time was never below 2.2sec but my trap speed in a 1/4 mile was always 114-118mph. I always ran a low to mid 12sec, but never broke into the 11sec range.
Alot of this may have plenty to do with the stock GSR tires. Just letting you all know, these tires suck. They may do better on a road course but they are definitely not a good drag tire. Hopefully when I get my G-Force T/A KDW it will make a huge difference. First I plan to get a lighter rim, most likely an Enkei RPF-1 17x8.5.
It really seems like a 3k launch isn't doing it. I feel all kinds of turbo lag. Next time I plan to try some launches without brake boosting or maybe a brake boost launch at a higher RPM.
Does anyone who ran 11sec have any comments for this? Any advise is appreciated. Thanks!
I did a few runs on it, and for some odd reason my 60' time was never below 2.2sec but my trap speed in a 1/4 mile was always 114-118mph. I always ran a low to mid 12sec, but never broke into the 11sec range.
Alot of this may have plenty to do with the stock GSR tires. Just letting you all know, these tires suck. They may do better on a road course but they are definitely not a good drag tire. Hopefully when I get my G-Force T/A KDW it will make a huge difference. First I plan to get a lighter rim, most likely an Enkei RPF-1 17x8.5.
It really seems like a 3k launch isn't doing it. I feel all kinds of turbo lag. Next time I plan to try some launches without brake boosting or maybe a brake boost launch at a higher RPM.
Does anyone who ran 11sec have any comments for this? Any advise is appreciated. Thanks!
Jul 10, 2011, 02:52 PM
#41
pretty sure the tires aren't the issue with 2.2 60fts. Guys do 1.8's with stock GSR's all day long.
Get below a 2.0 60ft and the car should be in the 11's with those traps, although the traps will go down once you get a real 60ft.
I'd say the 3k launch and your described "lag" is what is killing your 60ft. You need more RPM and boost off the line.
You are turning ASC off when you are launching right?
Get below a 2.0 60ft and the car should be in the 11's with those traps, although the traps will go down once you get a real 60ft.
I'd say the 3k launch and your described "lag" is what is killing your 60ft. You need more RPM and boost off the line.
You are turning ASC off when you are launching right?
Jul 10, 2011, 02:57 PM
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pretty sure the tires aren't the issue with 2.2 60fts. Guys do 1.8's with stock GSR's all day long.
Get below a 2.0 60ft and the car should be in the 11's with those traps, although the traps will go down once you get a real 60ft.
I'd say the 3k launch and your described "lag" is what is killing your 60ft. You need more RPM and boost off the line.
You are turning ASC off when you are launching right?
Get below a 2.0 60ft and the car should be in the 11's with those traps, although the traps will go down once you get a real 60ft.
I'd say the 3k launch and your described "lag" is what is killing your 60ft. You need more RPM and boost off the line.
You are turning ASC off when you are launching right?
Thanks for the input, what would you recommend?
Also I havent tried Map 1 yet, didn't get a chance to.
Jul 10, 2011, 03:01 PM
#43
Yep, ASC is always turned off. But the lag is very noticeable at a 3krpm launch. But its hard to feather to 3k like with the RA turbo, 2 gas pedal presses on the Evo X turbo on E85 and i'm at 3k, barely enough presses to get the turbo spooling.
Thanks for the input, what would you recommend?
Also I havent tried Map 1 yet, didn't get a chance to.
Thanks for the input, what would you recommend?
Also I havent tried Map 1 yet, didn't get a chance to.
The lag/bog you are getting is because of this. Even the MR with launch control at 5500rpm can bog if you don't get the launch just right.
Practice makes perfect.
Jul 10, 2011, 09:58 PM
#44
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The trap for the 1/4 mile was 112mph. I was told the Cobb AP is accurate to a drag strip reading on a 1/4 mile from others who ran it while doing a 1/4 mile on a strip. Anyways, the tires chirp so I know that's not good.
@ Razorlab could these bad tires hurt the 60' ? Seems like the 60' is whats hurting me from hitting high 11s