Let's remember that torque-limiting is mainly used with upgraded Evo X turbos, like a BBX lite or FP Green. If you're looking to upgrade to something like this, then you'll need to limit torque. If you're just going to a stock Evo X turbo, you won't see much limiting going on.

If you do decide to go big, in theory a clutch pack upgrade should allow you to run more torque. In practise, only a few have done the upgrade, and none of them have really pushed very far beyond the stock clutch limits. This is because there are many more variables to worry about than just the clutch packs themselves.

However, 350wtq is a large amount of power. In fact, if you convert this to crank tq, assuming a 20% drivetrain loss, you're near 440tq. That's more torque than a Corvette C6, and only 30 lb-ft less than the Z06, which has a 7.0L V8. At this level, you'd be smart to upgrade other things on the car, such as the brakes and suspension, to high-end parts. Good coilovers, a good bbk, sway bars, etc. will all make the car much safer to drive given the amount of power you'll be putting down.

By the time all these upgradess have been completed, you can expect the tuning community to have come a long way with the SST, and the problems we talk about today will likely be ancient history. You can obviously go to higher power levels if you want to push the envelope, especially if this is a drag-only car. However, if you're like me, and your car is your DD, I would make sure that the rest of your car is up to the task that you'll be demanding from it with the kind of power you'll be making.

Sweeping declaration!
Don't read from here on if you can't stomach the straight up honesty!

Also, this is not meant to be offensive, and is not meant for any one person. It's more of a reality check, one I've faced myself.

Carefully make your decisions about what you want from your car at this point. Realistically, if what you're looking for is a 500whp, fire-breathing monster, the amount it's going to cost you to make this car fairly safe and reliable to drive will be very high. In this case, I'd recommend you scrap your RA plans, and trade up for an Evo. If you can't afford an Evo, it stands to reason that you also can't afford to properly build a car that requires clutch packs. If this is the case, you have NO BUSINESS trying to build this car beyond your means. You WILL cut corners, which will make your car unreliable, and, more importantly, unsafe.

350wtq is the limit for the stock clutches. Clutch packs are available, but are not really a 100% proven method to increase the amount of torque you SST can handle. If you want MORE power, it makes MUCH more sense from a financial and logical standpoint to buy an Evo.

Here's the numbers, roughly (all prices are before install and may easily exceed what I put down):
Evo X stock frame upgrade with upgraded turbo: $2500
Aftermarket FMIC + piping $1000
Full exhaust $1000
Full clutch upgrade including coolers and oil pan $4000
Gauges and pod $500
Brakes $1000
Coilovers $1000
Sway bars $500

Installation and tuning, $2500+
Total - at least $14000

Difference between a RA and Evo X - no more than $10,000 for a GSR

Moral of the story? It's always your decision to mod your car the way you want. However, modding your RA to the point where you'd need clutch packs makes little sense when there are other options out there.

 

good write up! thanks for all the info and it makes sense when you want to build a track car.

My RA is my DD too so obviously i cant go to crazy but I am still looking for good power. There is a line between daily driver and track car and I will probably buy a project car down the road. Upgrading the clutches and going big turbo on a daily driver isnt worth it and I agree with everything said above.

I agree that if you want a 500whp car then buy an evo but if you are looking for a DD with a good kick then the RA is awesome

Ive put around $2000 in performance parts in my RA and I am putting down 260whp and 290wtq. Stock evos on the same dyno get around 230whp and alittle more torque (Obviously every car is different, this is just what one of the guys told me at the shop for a comparison). I think of the RA as a cheater car because a little work and it can perform pretty well.

Even with the turbo upgrade (Evo X) I would have still paid less than a GSR and I would be much faster. Obviously like stated above if you continue to mod a GSR it will be faster in the long run but then again theres a line between DD and track car.

 

That's exactly what I was going for.
I'm not about to tell people not to X swap, it's a great upgrade and is far cheaper to accomplish than going out and buying an X. I'm just reminding everyone to be smart about their goals.

You hit the nail on the head when you said that there is a point where upgrades for your RA suddenly becomes more expensive than doing the same thing with an Evo X (not mod for mod, but power for power). My personal belief is that point is just above 350wtq, where clutch upgrades become necessary and things start to get seriously expensive.

 

Couldnt have said it any better.

Depending on the persons goals it really depends on the car.

Fast daily driver = Ralliart
Track car = evo

Simple as that

 

Correction: There is a point where upgrades for your RA suddenly becomes more expensive than doing the same thing with an Evo X GSR.

Lets compare Apples to Apples as even Evo Guys who want serious power pick the GSR over the MR. If you don't care about the transmission, then sure the GSR makes more sense power for power.

However if you WANT a TC-SST and power, I'd say the Ralliart is by far the more logical choice. When you start talking about tracking (not drag racing), then maybe the Evo MR makes more sense, but maybe not... I think you could build a Ralliart that will annihilate a Stock MR with the extra $9,000 you'd save buying the RA over the MR.

 

Uhhh, you could for about $2K.
That comparison doesn't make sense. I get what you are saying, but using the logic of 'price difference on upgrades' works for pretty much ALL CARS. Only issue with that being, if you had the 'price difference' to throw around like that, you would probably get the upgraded model to begin with.

 

Ive talked to my buddy who is really big in the atuo x community in the chicago land area and he has seen a couple of ralliarts out perform evos. He calls the ralliart the cheater car cause it performs great compared to evos which cost a lot more

 

still such a waste the evo x didn't come in a sportback, hence the path that i chose

would be interesting to see how much power i can squeeze out of the RA with the cbrd turbs and the next stage with an e85 tune

 

Keep us posted bb1, I'm interested to see the RAD on e85 as well. That thing would have some SERIOUS torque

 

Good point. Especially in Canada, where the difference is, well, $20k...

I'm impressed with the number of people from Australia that are putting together powerful RAs. IIRC, the difference in price between an RA and an Evo X in Aus is similar to that in Canada. Would love to see more RAs putting down big numbers up here

 

BTW, how much torque can the GSR stock transmission hold? I doubt it's much higher than 350. Just take a quick look in the EvoX section. People make the SST the vilain but the bottomline is that when you go up in power you have to upgrade your components. OK upgrading a manual clutch might not be as expensive as the SST but the RA starting point is lower too. I think that in a few years this will not be an issue any more as people gain knowlege with the dual-clutch transmissions.

 

I agree completely. And once this transmission is fully figured out, It is possible we will be able to hold more power on our stock trans and clutches over a GSR cause we *might* be able to tune the clutch pressure, etc where as a manual you'll have to buy parts no matter what. I anticipate a time in the future where owning a SST is considered a good thing instead of a bad thing.

 

Completely agree with both of you guys. I feel like Ive been plagued with the "questions" regarding the SST on our cars and how "scary" and "unknown" the system is. But like you said hopefully in the future the capabilities as far as tuning wise will be much more known and at the swap of a few numbers make it a tranny that inspires confidence.

I feel like only Bryan knows much about our SST. And SSP is the only company that sells parts. Do any of you guys know any other companies doing R & D on this at all? I figure SSP can seel the parts so high because no one else has them..

 

There's rumors floating around all over the forum about different companies doing R&D, but I won't go into it because all I've seen is speculation. I hope that this research is ongoing, because if the TCU is finally cracked, as yourself, 10Sportback and Eyedreamt posted, this becomes a completely different ballgame. As I'm sure many are aware, AMS' Alpha 12 GTR, which has a very similar trans, is putting down north of 1200whp, with over 1000wtq. Btw, if you haven't seen this car, go to Youtube. NOW.
Based on this, I can't see why our TC-SST with upgraded clutches and a cracked TCU couldn't hold 600wtq, or more.

To be clear, I never meant to vilify the TC-SST, it's a great gearbox and is one of my favorite things about my RA. I totally agree that with R&D, this trans will probably become the platform of choice in the future, easily holding more power than a stock GSR trans. It just takes time.

However, my post is relevant to what's happening right now. At this point, there is no real consensus on a reliable method to have our trans hold over 350wtq. On the flip side, there are methods that allow a GSR manual trans to hold much more torque than that.

Fact of the matter is, at this point, we really can't safely go over 350wtq. Therefore, I think it's important to make sure the community, especially the people just coming onboard, knows their car's limits.

Some background: I came into the Ralliart from a Civic, and nobody on those forums bothered to stop and say "here's what you can do - realistically".

Example: the forum people over there would tell you that you can build a turbocharged Civic on stock internals and make 250whp, and swear it could be done for $2000. However, nobody bothered to tell you that you can't DD this car because you'd grenade your bottom end, and suddenly your $2000 project becomes a $10,000 project. I have no experience with this
On an unrelated note, I hate Civics.

Therefore, I think it's good to have a line drawn in the sand so that people don't end up in the same boat as me .

 

There are a ton of other things that happen when you get to this level. Welcome to the last 7 months of my life.

It's been a total pain in the *** as there are so many factors that come into play you have a hard time knowing which way is up.

I finally have shifting down. First to second is still being a pita.

I really really really need a spare TCU....