No Excuses rules discussion - I have a question
May 30, 2008, 08:48 AM
#50
Paul be very careful who you are accusing of typing under which name.. your really pissing me off now.. I was asleep when this thread went on and i just got into myshop and read this thread for the 1st time..
I dont side with the buschur camp Paul.. I have my own opinion and i voice it when i feel i have to.. You made the huge stink last week about buschurs car last week and then you tell me it was really AMS that was pissed.. I heard hours upon hours of crying about the BR car..You got your panties all in a bunch over nothing.. 90% of everyone on here agreed the car should stay on the list and not be strongarmed into being out on his own list.. Get in your car and run some times and stop worrying about everyone else.. The way it looks right now you have been knocked down to #4.. Look who is right below you in a street car on that list!!!
I dont side with the buschur camp Paul.. I have my own opinion and i voice it when i feel i have to.. You made the huge stink last week about buschurs car last week and then you tell me it was really AMS that was pissed.. I heard hours upon hours of crying about the BR car..You got your panties all in a bunch over nothing.. 90% of everyone on here agreed the car should stay on the list and not be strongarmed into being out on his own list.. Get in your car and run some times and stop worrying about everyone else.. The way it looks right now you have been knocked down to #4.. Look who is right below you in a street car on that list!!!
I stated my own opinion about how i felt on the other thread. Even my own guys didnt care about the rear end. I said how i felt. AMS has nothing to do with this i never said anything about them. Only 9sec240 was posting his ideas and thoughts.
If you look at the poll its about half feel the way i do and the other half feels the other. Do i feel that sticking a ford rear end in a evo is the backwards way to do things yes but others feel it makes it more reliable. From what ive seen this is a open board and we can say what we feel.
May 30, 2008, 08:49 AM
#51
Paul be very careful who you are accusing of typing under which name.. your really pissing me off now.. I was asleep when this thread went on and i just got into myshop and read this thread for the 1st time..
I dont side with the buschur camp Paul.. I have my own opinion and i voice it when i feel i have to.. You made the huge stink last week about buschurs car last week and then you tell me it was really AMS that was pissed.. I heard hours upon hours of crying about the BR car..You got your panties all in a bunch over nothing.. 90% of everyone on here agreed the car should stay on the list and not be strongarmed into being out on his own list.. Get in your car and run some times and stop worrying about everyone else.. The way it looks right now you have been knocked down to #4.. Look who is right below you in a street car on that list!!!
I dont side with the buschur camp Paul.. I have my own opinion and i voice it when i feel i have to.. You made the huge stink last week about buschurs car last week and then you tell me it was really AMS that was pissed.. I heard hours upon hours of crying about the BR car..You got your panties all in a bunch over nothing.. 90% of everyone on here agreed the car should stay on the list and not be strongarmed into being out on his own list.. Get in your car and run some times and stop worrying about everyone else.. The way it looks right now you have been knocked down to #4.. Look who is right below you in a street car on that list!!!
My car has so much more in her its not even funny i have no doubt that better times are to come. Ive always made my power ahd headed right to the track
May 30, 2008, 08:54 AM
#52
I stated my own opinion about how i felt on the other thread. Even my own guys didnt care about the rear end. I said how i felt. AMS has nothing to do with this i never said anything about them. Only 9sec240 was posting his ideas and thoughts.
If you look at the poll its about half feel the way i do and the other half feels the other. Do i feel that sticking a ford rear end in a evo is the backwards way to do things yes but others feel it makes it more reliable. From what ive seen this is a open board and we can say what we feel.
If you look at the poll its about half feel the way i do and the other half feels the other. Do i feel that sticking a ford rear end in a evo is the backwards way to do things yes but others feel it makes it more reliable. From what ive seen this is a open board and we can say what we feel.
Just when I started to like the sound of it
May 30, 2008, 08:58 AM
#54
Al's post about the heights of the car is correct, it is in the rule book from what I remember. I am sure he quoted it directly. So there are already rules about how low the car can be.
I took the time to call the race track because I already knew about this subject from long ago. Back in the '70's some guys were caught cheating by running a plate under the car the length of the car. This would allow the car to be staged correctly but the Stage beam would not re-connect for 14', the ET's would be low, 60' times were low but the MPH remains the same.
I just got off the phone with the owner of Summit Motorsports Park.
Here is some information. The Pre Staged and Staged beams are lasers, the laser beam is 1/8" diameter. After these two beams many tracks in the past had what was called a "guard beam" this would trigger a red light if the staged beam and the gaurd beam were ever both off at the same time, it protected against cheating with a car that was too low in the front end. This beam has now been removed from most if not all tracks as after the cheating was caught people stopped doing it. Summit Motorsports Park no longer uses a guard beam but does have a 3rd light that allows some wiggle room for stick cars that move slightly.
The height off the track is 1.5" for the laser beams. So it is very easy to see that if the car is lower than 1.5" from the ground in the front then the tip of the fascia is going to trip the pre-staged and staged beams first. This then allows for the car to move, possibly, all the way to the back of the front tire before the timers are started.
This would then show a very quick 60' time and very quick ET, the MPH on the other hand would show up as normal.
The MPH is timed in the last 66' of the track. There are two lasers there also. The first one starts the MPH clock, the second on ends the MPH clock and ET.
There is no reason to debate this. There are rules already outlined on how low a car can be in the front. IF it is even close to 1.5" from the ground then there is a problem for sure. Those timing lights are not measured each and evertime they are put in, although they should be very very close. IF you are anywhere near 1.5" then I'd say the chances of the times being manipulated are extremely good.
I just measured our car and it is 4-1/8" off the ground.
So the rules are the rules, the cars do have a minimum ride height in the front to keep this type of thing from happening.
I took the time to call the race track because I already knew about this subject from long ago. Back in the '70's some guys were caught cheating by running a plate under the car the length of the car. This would allow the car to be staged correctly but the Stage beam would not re-connect for 14', the ET's would be low, 60' times were low but the MPH remains the same.
I just got off the phone with the owner of Summit Motorsports Park.
Here is some information. The Pre Staged and Staged beams are lasers, the laser beam is 1/8" diameter. After these two beams many tracks in the past had what was called a "guard beam" this would trigger a red light if the staged beam and the gaurd beam were ever both off at the same time, it protected against cheating with a car that was too low in the front end. This beam has now been removed from most if not all tracks as after the cheating was caught people stopped doing it. Summit Motorsports Park no longer uses a guard beam but does have a 3rd light that allows some wiggle room for stick cars that move slightly.
The height off the track is 1.5" for the laser beams. So it is very easy to see that if the car is lower than 1.5" from the ground in the front then the tip of the fascia is going to trip the pre-staged and staged beams first. This then allows for the car to move, possibly, all the way to the back of the front tire before the timers are started.
This would then show a very quick 60' time and very quick ET, the MPH on the other hand would show up as normal.
The MPH is timed in the last 66' of the track. There are two lasers there also. The first one starts the MPH clock, the second on ends the MPH clock and ET.
There is no reason to debate this. There are rules already outlined on how low a car can be in the front. IF it is even close to 1.5" from the ground then there is a problem for sure. Those timing lights are not measured each and evertime they are put in, although they should be very very close. IF you are anywhere near 1.5" then I'd say the chances of the times being manipulated are extremely good.
I just measured our car and it is 4-1/8" off the ground.
So the rules are the rules, the cars do have a minimum ride height in the front to keep this type of thing from happening.
May 30, 2008, 09:01 AM
#55
That poll also considers that people want a seperate class for street cars.. if you read the entire thread that we debated i will name 90% of the people saying davids car should NOT be considered anything different.. I dont have the time to do it right now but i will sit there and write down every name that said the car should be run on the list with everyon else and those that said its some sort of outlaw car and doesnt belong.. do you wanna bet a few $$$ its close to 90%??
On the subject on hand i think its a really dumb point as its really up to the track to catch it on the front aero part. There is no way to regulate it. To many tracks to many people running in different areas. It does make for conversation over a cup of coffee
Again congratz to Brandon for being the 2nd quickest evo out there
May 30, 2008, 09:04 AM
#56
I'm not sure I fully understand your question Al.
So are you saying the hypothetical bumper trips the beams when staging so you are effectively staging shallower than you would if you were tripping the beams with a tire? And I guess hypothetically your indicating that the beam would not be "cleared" until after the tire rolled by. In reality when the car launches the lift created by the launch would probably cause the beam that was triggered by the bumper to be cleared immediatly, thereby probably negating any attempt at hypothetical super shallow staging or cheating - essentially just adding a few feet to the 1/4mile.
Sounds like cheating to me if it's actually possible to do what I think your describing. Any intentional attempt to trick the staging / timing devices at a track sounds clearly like cheating to me. In competition the track official doing the staging should ensure that vehicles are staged properly, other competitors should keep the rest of the field honest if the official doesnt notice. In test and tune and Evo Fastest 15 or whatever there are no rules so your only cheating yourself. I know at my track they wouldnt let you stage this way anyhow.
Just because someone has a low lip on their car does not make them a cheater IMO. If your trying to insinuate that <insert> is cheating just because they have aero parts on their car that hypothetically could be used to cheat that's a whole lot of "IF" and looks like a path to "FAIL".
So are you saying the hypothetical bumper trips the beams when staging so you are effectively staging shallower than you would if you were tripping the beams with a tire? And I guess hypothetically your indicating that the beam would not be "cleared" until after the tire rolled by. In reality when the car launches the lift created by the launch would probably cause the beam that was triggered by the bumper to be cleared immediatly, thereby probably negating any attempt at hypothetical super shallow staging or cheating - essentially just adding a few feet to the 1/4mile.
Sounds like cheating to me if it's actually possible to do what I think your describing. Any intentional attempt to trick the staging / timing devices at a track sounds clearly like cheating to me. In competition the track official doing the staging should ensure that vehicles are staged properly, other competitors should keep the rest of the field honest if the official doesnt notice. In test and tune and Evo Fastest 15 or whatever there are no rules so your only cheating yourself. I know at my track they wouldnt let you stage this way anyhow.
Just because someone has a low lip on their car does not make them a cheater IMO. If your trying to insinuate that <insert> is cheating just because they have aero parts on their car that hypothetically could be used to cheat that's a whole lot of "IF" and looks like a path to "FAIL".
Last edited by Mr. Evo IX; May 30, 2008 at 09:08 AM.
May 30, 2008, 09:10 AM
#57
There is 1 particular person who in ATCO knows exactly where to chop his car at 200mph to make the front of the nose bury down and catch the beams early.. that can yield as much as 10-15mph extra at 200mph.. so yes it can be done if someone is smart enough to know how to do it..
May 30, 2008, 09:10 AM
#58
Actually Paul the poll is not about a rearend. Nowhere does it say it's about the rear end in that poll. The poll is about should there be any rules. You little jabs too about the stock rear suspension and the 60's show you are bent about what we did. Don't hide, come out say what you want to say, don't just make behind the scene phone calls crying about it.
Also, this is direct from the NHRA rule book:
"GROUND CLEARANCE: Minimum 3" from front of car to 12" behind centerline of front axle, 2" for remainder of car, except oil pan and exhaust headers."
I feel that there is a big difference between adding a part for performance or reliability and cheating. Cheating would mean doing something that knowingly manipulates the timers, that is what this is about.
How about I put a larger retractable ***** in the nose of our car and hit my "***** thruster" button right at the finish line, then this 20' ***** thrusts out across the finish line? Get the point? Nobody wants to use a 20' *****
Also, this is direct from the NHRA rule book:
"GROUND CLEARANCE: Minimum 3" from front of car to 12" behind centerline of front axle, 2" for remainder of car, except oil pan and exhaust headers."
I feel that there is a big difference between adding a part for performance or reliability and cheating. Cheating would mean doing something that knowingly manipulates the timers, that is what this is about.
How about I put a larger retractable ***** in the nose of our car and hit my "***** thruster" button right at the finish line, then this 20' ***** thrusts out across the finish line? Get the point? Nobody wants to use a 20' *****
May 30, 2008, 09:10 AM
#59
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I want to know if adding aero parts to trick the staging beams is FAIR game or NOT
The reason why I am asking is that I feel it will give you at least 1.5 - 2 /10ths advantage off the 60 foot by affording you a significant rolling start
I want to know what others think as IF this is now considered FAIR PLAY - (even though it is clearly against NHRA rules) I intened to add a low beak onto my car to catch the beams out as far as I can.
Al
May 30, 2008, 09:13 AM
#60
Actually Paul the poll is not about a rearend. Nowhere does it say it's about the rear end in that poll. The poll is about should there be any rules. You little jabs too about the stock rear suspension and the 60's show you are bent about what we did. Don't hide, come out say what you want to say, don't just make behind the scene phone calls crying about it.
Also, this is direct from the NHRA rule book:
"GROUND CLEARANCE: Minimum 3" from front of car to 12" behind centerline of front axle, 2" for remainder of car, except oil pan and exhaust headers."
I feel that there is a big difference between adding a part for performance or reliability and cheating. Cheating would mean doing something that knowingly manipulates the timers, that is what this is about.
How about I put a larger retractable ***** in the nose of our car and hit my "***** thruster" button right at the finish line, then this 20' ***** thrusts out across the finish line? Get the point? Nobody wants to use a 20' *****
Also, this is direct from the NHRA rule book:
"GROUND CLEARANCE: Minimum 3" from front of car to 12" behind centerline of front axle, 2" for remainder of car, except oil pan and exhaust headers."
I feel that there is a big difference between adding a part for performance or reliability and cheating. Cheating would mean doing something that knowingly manipulates the timers, that is what this is about.
How about I put a larger retractable ***** in the nose of our car and hit my "***** thruster" button right at the finish line, then this 20' ***** thrusts out across the finish line? Get the point? Nobody wants to use a 20' *****
Ive tried a 12" one with a girl on a one night stand but thats about it
I understand what you are saying on a serious note but how do you regulate it? Man that would be hard.