MATT@WORKS

This is always controversial: tossing your turn in.

So I know it depends on the car, but how many people feel that a track car should be "tossed" or "thrown" into a corner? It sounds like lack of setup to me. I know from driving a touring style car, that smoother is better, but I also know that some corners need some arm strength to avoid an understeer situation.

I guess in essence, has anyone done any studying on the trade off between wasting weight transfer/traction from rough turn in v. the ***-happy result needed for something as heavy/understeery as an Evo? I've never driven a track-built Evo, or really anything like it, is it still necessary to throw it into turns? Watching like JGTC, or really any Japanese driver on the track, they seem to do this often with drifting consequences, even when they're going for lap times. Most of my racing buddies set up their cars to understeer a little bit, and they hardly ever get them sideways, relying on smoothness to grab fast lap times.

This brings up another topic: smoothness.
I REALLY think this is a lost art. I absolutely believe that if more drivers were just smoother, that we would have a multitude of outstanding drivers. The fastest guys are always the ones that are out there looking like they're on a Sunday cruise.

theblue

iTrader: (1)

the smoothest possible line often cannot offer enough turn-in to get you around a corner without dropping a lot of speed and ending up in the world of understeer. it really comes down to your ability to rotate the car as needed while losing as little speed as possible.

it's a very delicate and thin line argument - the ideal would always be improve your car so you don't need to throw it in which is often as easy as telling your girlfriend she would look better if she lost 20lbs.

MATT@WORKS

Haha, nice... yeah, I mean I think the guys that are making the toss are the ones with a stock or poorly setup car... usually an evo. But its an interesting question because my whole driving career (which hasn't been long... maybe 5 years seriously on track) my coaches/instructors/peers have told me to just make everything smooth. I KNOW that when you're really pulling some speed, and teetering right on the edge of traction in braking, you don't want to waste traction by throwing weight around-- its useful in turning obviously. But it seems that many people USE this loss of traction to help turn in, but why don't they just set up their cars to oversteer more?!

Confusion.

theblue

iTrader: (1)

too much oversteer causes traction loss also...

if you have two types of turns which do you set your car up for? you can't pick both.

MATT@WORKS

Well that's where the driver comes in... but like I said, most of my BMW racing buddies set up the car to NEVER oversteer, i.e. removing the rear sway bar, ect. But it seems the Japanese guys opt for the other way. If you look at Bill Auberlen, he LOVES his car setup pushy. What I'm asking is basically why some people pick one way or the other. BMW seems to win plenty more races than Mitsu does, and on top of that, it seems the Europeans/Americans with a smoother style are setting overall faster times then the Japanese drivers with the JGTC "Pitch" action.

theblue

iTrader: (1)

here is my take... you can "manage" and work around mild understeer... but when you have oversteer your only option is to slow down to regain traction.

in my evo I can turn the car in to a point where I know it will understeer if I maintain constant speed but since I got back on the gas EARLY it forces the car to neutral and by the time the turbo is fully spooled I'm done with the turn.

I hear a lot of people say that sway bars are evil because you should have just run a higher spring rate (the sway bar is a spring if you think about it). so why not run all spring and no sway? because it will ride like **** and probably other reason I can't think of. I can run a aggressive street spring with a sway bar upgrade and get a decent ride because the sway bar only factors in under lateral acceleration really.

dsycks

iTrader: (10)

The problem with a bar is that you hurt one side of the car for the benefit of the other. I think you could use one to tune a car but I would not care to use one as a major part of the base setup.

For myself, I think it depends on the turn. Some based on what comes before and what is coming up after reward me for taking a smoth clean easy line while others reward me for taking a heavy hand and tossing the car hard and making it rotate.

Problem is that it's not always easy to figure out which corner is best suited for what so I have taken to begging much more experienced drivers who track similar chassis how they set up each corner.

Another thing I have found is that the "racing line" is not always the same as the "time attack" line, in other words the race line is not always fastest. As I'm not a wheel to wheel guy I take it on faith that I'm getting good information there but it makes sense as in setting up a turn for the fastest time may let another car dive under you taking away the line forcing you to slow down and lose position. Seems as if this would also have some to do with the outcome of tossing the car in vs. smooth driving the line.

TouringBubble

iTrader: (2)

Like mentioned above, I really think it depends on the corner/track.

I guess the basic idea behind it is to set up the car for just a tad of understeer at the limit, which would be preferred for larger radius corners. If the line requires a little more rotation, you can give it a little flick and initiate some oversteer.

With this type of setup you wouldn't lose as much speed if you pushed a little too hard in the sweepers and it leaves a little more margin for error.

But, I completely agree with your argument of smooth vs. toss. It does seem to be a sort of lost art.

EvoBroMA

old thread but i just wanted to add in my 2c. JGTC is totally different than American/European racing. its much more aggressive, and thats why they setup the cars to be able to toss. they need more response in the turn - for overtaking and defending purposes and give up smoothness. they would rather be able to make corrections mid turn than go for the fastest possible turn.

if you watch japanese purpose built time attack vehicles, you can see that they also push, and are not tossed into a turn.

the whole point of JGTC is as a spectator sport - not to be the fastest. Apparently westerners never get that.

Evoovasti

iTrader: (3)

I feel that you toss your car in the corner, once you learn the limits of your car and tire set-up driving becomes much easier, if you can't find the limit then good luck

racerjon1

You can "manage" anything.. different lines, different inputs etc. But the second part of the statement is wrong by way of not being complete.

You can stop a car from oversteering by giving it throttle if your understeer is caused by momentum (overdriving the tires limits) giving it throttle will put weight on the rear tires, helping them grip and stopping the slide.

It won't ride like **** if you have properly valved dampers. When testing the AMS car we tried a few different sets of coilovers, and the 900-lb Daddio-built Ohlins with no stock sway bars felt much better than some of the 300-400lb crap we tried with large sways or stock sway bars.. they were faster too. The hard part is getting those properly valved dampers.


now to go to the original question..

The toss works. You are transfering weight with a flick of the car.. however as cars have become better suited to being driven fast, smoothness has taken over as the way to go fast around a racetrack, and a flick is very often overkill, and harder to keep under control for the level of precision needed. As cars and setups get more sensitive, it becomes even more important. (IE. Bias ply tires vs low-profile racing slicks you will find on a modern GT car.. Bias plys are more forgiving to the flick, but they are still slower to start with)

So if we know that this weight transfer still does help make a car turn, then why not use it and try to perfect it.. wait we do..

It's called trail braking.

When you trail brake you are essentially using the same weight transfer - but in a more precise way - to keep the weight where you want it, instead of loading it up all at once.

Now.. don't get me wrong, when I get in something that isn't working, I will still go back to the "just throw it in" method.. it just isn't my first choice.

fastkevin

iTrader: (11)

My experience with it is with some turns it's the fastest way through.Way back in the day, I did a bunch of POC "Slaloms" (tight courses) as a prerequisite to getting a Cup license (and then kept doing them 'cuz they were so fun). I remember one track/course where they had a turn that was like a "W". I swear I started the drifting craze with that turn :-) Anyway, the fast way through was to get the car pitched at the first 180, it would come around and go the other way at the 2nd 180, and if timed right, it would work perfect all the way through. I ended up with the FTD, against much faster/lighter/better handling cars because of this method in the one turn. I also remember the old T4 at the Streets Of Willow.Throwing it in pitched the car out so it would snap back, and step out in the other direction, giving you the perfect line for entering the following turn.
It's just a tool in the chest, like stepping a vehicle out under braking to square it off, or out brake someone(best utilized with proportioning valve), pitching a car on the exit, Ada yada.

MATT@WORKS

So I did some research on all this, and asked some big figures in some high-up series about it all. Its called a compound turn-- or a derivative of one-- when you turn the wrong way to make an aggressive weight transfer. It apparently depends on the car and the turn 100%. You may set up the car to be perfectly stable in some turns, but when it comes to, say, a low-speed 180 degree right hander, you may want to get it to rotate much more than trail braking alone would help you with. A true "pitch" can also be disguised as "setting the wheel". If you look at tires like rolling pieces of velcro on a velcro road, you need to basically pick up the tire and replace it at a different angle to change direction. This changes depending on the type of car. I could image to get a car with lots of weight over the front (an Evo) to turn aggressively, you would need to really "set the wheel". As for a car with less weight on the front end, like a BMW for instance, its not as dramatic. In fact, a harder turn in changed very little unless you were trail braking a good deal already. It was more like driving ice-block wheels on a skillet road if you made dramatic wheel movements and it simply just slowed you down with the added rolling resistance. It should be apparent why there was this effect in this picture:



Most BMWs are setup to lift the front wheel when turning under throttle to minimize the effect of power oversteer. BMWs have a big ***, lots of overhang, pretty much the exact opposite of an Evo or Subaru or Audi. As I said, I had about an hour and a half to play with trail braking, and I can tell you, even on a low-speed 180-degree right hander while trail braking, it still depends on the car you're driving.

This was an interesting experiment though, watching all the differing comments and suggestions. It seems there really is more than one fast way 'round the track!

machron1

iTrader: (1)

I think tossing the evo into turns is essential for the tight stuff. if you think about it, when you go smooth into a tight turn, you unload the inside front wheel, making it useless for turning, and the effect is understeer. however, if you toss it in, at that point both front wheels are still on the ground, and there is plenty of grip to change direction. also, it sets the car's yaw rate up to continue an oversteer slip angle up to the point everything balances out and it starts to push. the trick is to go in hot enough that the speed you scrub off was never needed for the corner...
EDIT: I once took my PCA instructor friend out for a few laps in my VIII. the toss-in was met with scepticism since he was used to ***-happy death traps, but i showed him the classic smooth line, which was understeer city, and he eventually agreed with the toss-in method. note this is just for the slow stuff. the medium to fast stuff i would not toss in.