MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

With all of the hype and excitement about performing an E85 conversion on cars. Apparently, the government has not yet caught up and its considered against the law.

I have not done any extensive research, but the government does not appear to want "DIY" conversions performed and has only approved one aftermarket company to do any fuel conversions.

The only exception is Zero emission conversions, which you can apply for an exemption (electric conversions)

What are your takes on this? And does anyone have any more useful/recent information on the topic?

Kc2Buk

iTrader: (6)

I can tell you this. Don't even bother asking any one in DMV. 6 out of 7 people there had no clue what I was asking them. As long as you pass the sniffer test in NJ they don't even ask what fuel is in the car.
The one gas station in SI NY that has E85 is for government use only.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I'm actually surprised more people haven't chimed in on this.

There is a huge market in offering flex fuel, or full conversions. But in my research, the government isn't making it easy for people to do any grassroots conversions or any other form of R&D, let alone encouraging people to do this. The people who have expressed interest have been actively discouraged or threatened.. Unbelievable eh?

mrbkkt1

iTrader: (6)

Here in hawaii, we have a forced E-10 program.
It was cool the first week, when they were adding ethanol to 92 octane gas, but after they adjusted for the higher properites of ethanol, it go crappy fast.
now our milage sucks, and they can make 84 octane gas, and add ethanol for the 87 octane regular. and so forth for the 92.
I would pay extra $$$ for ethanol free gasoline.

WE import sweet crude to hawaii refineries to make gas here, and now we import ethanol as well, since we have no local ethanol source.
talk about ***-backwards. now 2 ships have to steam over here and pollute the air, instead of 1 for the "benefits" of ethanol.........

onefast4dr

iTrader: (1)

I agree with you, that makes no sense. With Hawaii being a former powerhouse in the sugar industry, you would think that they would just start to grow sugar again since sugar cane is very efficient in producing ethanol.

Evilution VIII

hemp can produce more yet

pac74

iTrader: (2)

So If I convert, Why would I tell them? I'm sure my car is illegal right now anyways

mrbkkt1

iTrader: (6)

unfortunately, sugar hasn't been grown commercially here in over 10 years, and it takes 2 years before you get a crop to produce.
also, burning the cane has got to produce about a million more times pollution than what we would gain by using ethanol.....
once again, *** backwards.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

As an individual, I'm not so sure it really matters all that much.. ya know, "Don't ask, Don't tell" as long as your car passes an inspection I doubt it would raise eyebrows.

But the big problem with getting E85 widely accepted, is that there are plenty of gas only cars, that with a few hundred dollars in parts and a retune, can easily run E85 instead of gasoline, or in some cases, become true flex-fuel capable. I see a market out there, but the problem is doing it legally and safely.

The Evo (as with many other turbocharged cars) are great candidates for these conversions because their dynamic, changes can be made to take advantage of the fuel. But even normally aspirated cars can take advantage of it.

There are obvious drawbacks to the end user at the moment..
1) Limited availability at the moment
2) Miles per gallon are lower, but miles per DOLLAR is about the same.

The jury is still out on whether or not E85 (or any combustion fuel) produces any less pollution or greenhouse gases, but part of the strong desire for myself, besides performance, is to reduce the dependency on foreign oil, additionally, we would/could be using a fuel source that can be produced anywhere the raw materials exist. And the raw materials can be almost any type of biomatter, assuming it has enough sugars to be fermented properly.

I'm not sure if the problems are truely related to supply and demand, as both don't really exist in large quantities yet. Or my other "conspiracy theory" thoughts that there is a big enough lobby out there making enough noise to slow the acceptance and distribution.

The other problem is Ignorance of what is out there. Or just fear of change.

I admire some of the companies (BP for example) who do advertise E85 to raise awareness and create some demand. And the fact that 10-30% of the cars produced at this moment are already flex fuel capable.

Consumers are a bit dumb though, because they see everything as MPG and very little else. Especially the idiots who drive SUV's who dont really need it, then ***** about spending $60+ to fill up, suck it up morons or do something about it (Directed at every ballin escalade or whiny soccer mom).



Ultimately the government should encourage or require at least one hybrid/flex fuel vehicle if you are a multi-car family. If you have only one, then maybe a tax break or rebate program to encourage it. But again, my conspiracy theory mind works overtime...


I won't lie.. I like to build things, and like to make money, and see a very profitable market in doing conversions for people. However in my attempt to find a legal way to do it. I have been ignored, discouraged, then finally threatened when I was able to offer a working proof of concept. Yet I was given no way to do this in a manner that would allow me to participate in a program that would allow this, well, actually, if I had MILLIONS of dollars then I could participate in the program.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Not sure whats involved in extracting the sugar, but burning the byproducts and left-overs can be used to produce even more power, and its probably easier to build new clean technology to run cleaner than cars, but I do understand your point..

The big problem is I always hear excuses why "It can't be done" when there are so many ways of doing things, and that IT CAN be done fairly cleanly. But it costs money, and that is the bottom line when it comes down to it.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I do think Hawaii is in a unique situation because of your isolation though.

It should be one of those places where you can get away with using E100 and producing it all domestically, assuming there is enough raw material, and to produce the supply to meet the demand, of course without destroying what makes hawaii what it is.

Kc2Buk

iTrader: (6)

They are sure taking their sweet old time getting E85 to us here in the tri-state.
I would have had the conversion on my car done already if I could get the fuel with-in 15 min from home or work.

brkn4g63

Concerning the DMV:

You are exactly right. They can't find their *** with both hands. A friend of mine is an undergraduate engineer and a licensed aerospace mechanic. He is building a Lamborghini on a fiero chassis, (which is coming out absolutely beautifully down to the last detail, btw) and he was exploring options for a power plant. First, he wanted to do an electric conversion using a DC motor and a fair amount of lead acid or lithium cells. So he enquired about registering it. They said that was illegal, you can't do that. So he asked about a late model sportbike engine. They said no you can't do that either because "the engine wasn't designed for a car and it will pollute more." I hate to say it, but don't even bother with those incompetent fools at the DMV. "Don't ask, don't tell" is right.


I think the main reason E85 isn't so widely accepted is due to the fact that it has ~25% (this number is rolling around on the E85 articles on the 'net, so I'll roll with it. Take with a grain of salt.) less potential energy than gasoline. In western and eastern states, there is no pipeline to carry ethanol due to it's corrosive properties (again, so I've read). So it has to be trucked to its destination, raising the price in most cases to over the cost of premium (91 [R+m]/2) here in Nevada. Combine that with the extra amounts you need to travel the same distance, Joe Schmoe and his inefficient, 6000lb turd SUV would find it very uneconomical very quickly as he travels such ...trecharous... roads to get groceries, and therefore has no incentive to buy. The fact that these turds would need even more E85 to travel the same distance greatly negates the lower pollution advantage.

I think from a tuner's standpoint, it's a great deal, assuming it isn't watered down with 15% cheap gasoline. If you take advantage of the higher octane number by boosting higher, increasing the volumetric efficiency of say the 4g63, I wonder how much of that ~25% energy loss can be minimized...

On a sidenote, I wonder how a Walboro 255lph pump would stand up to ethanol. I know rubber is attacked by ethanol, but nothing is ever mentioned about the pump itself.

derangedazn

iTrader: (3)

All I want to know is when will the Plutonium Powered Delorean be available? I am hoping for the parallel wheel conversion kit so I can hover in one place.

Apex VIII

iTrader: (1)

True that!