E-85 or Meth wich way to go ?
Feb 21, 2009, 06:32 PM
#16
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retuning every week will be hard, a meth kit will be the way to go for easy power and to keep it as a DD. and since you can't get e 85 on pump, there is no point
Feb 21, 2009, 06:54 PM
#17
^Agreed. I have run both on my setup and while I enjoyed most of the benefits of E85 more than Meth injection, meth is better for me for three reasons:
1. I live 86 miles from the nearest E85 pump and the once per week drive to fill up all my fuel canisters (Using my DD) became too much.
2. Methanol is only triggered/used at a certain boost level, so when you are just cruising around its not being used and you are spending nothing on your high octane "fuel". While E85 is very cheap, if you don't have easy access to it, then in reality it isn't.
3. If you tend to travel at all in your Evo, the issue of availability becomes even bigger. Carrying around extra E85 is not really viable, though I used a 15 gallon tank with built in pump when I needed to (Mounted in Trunk) You can map switch, but I prefer to let the E85 run as low as possible before fueling up with 91 and switching maps. That just causes too much stress.
Overall, it all depends on availability as almost everyone has mentioned. I am going back to Methanol when I go in for my next tune and I will map switch to a C16 for the track to avoid the issues meth has sloshing around during road racing.
1. I live 86 miles from the nearest E85 pump and the once per week drive to fill up all my fuel canisters (Using my DD) became too much.
2. Methanol is only triggered/used at a certain boost level, so when you are just cruising around its not being used and you are spending nothing on your high octane "fuel". While E85 is very cheap, if you don't have easy access to it, then in reality it isn't.
3. If you tend to travel at all in your Evo, the issue of availability becomes even bigger. Carrying around extra E85 is not really viable, though I used a 15 gallon tank with built in pump when I needed to (Mounted in Trunk) You can map switch, but I prefer to let the E85 run as low as possible before fueling up with 91 and switching maps. That just causes too much stress.
Overall, it all depends on availability as almost everyone has mentioned. I am going back to Methanol when I go in for my next tune and I will map switch to a C16 for the track to avoid the issues meth has sloshing around during road racing.
Last edited by sspaladin28; Feb 21, 2009 at 07:00 PM.
Feb 21, 2009, 07:00 PM
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with n fp red and ems, if you wanna make great power you will need 1200-1600 injectors on E85..
100% i recommend e85 over meth.. meth is an additive of pump gas, e85 is way safer n makes WAY more power
100% i recommend e85 over meth.. meth is an additive of pump gas, e85 is way safer n makes WAY more power
Feb 22, 2009, 03:20 PM
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You all misunderstood the question.
I am a friend of his and he is wondering if he should run E85 or a 99,6% pure methanol instead of the E85, not as meth injection kit.
We are aware that of the corrosion and that we would need to purge the system after each usage.
But since we do not have E85 on pump here the Methanol is quite a bit cheaper.
I am a friend of his and he is wondering if he should run E85 or a 99,6% pure methanol instead of the E85, not as meth injection kit.
We are aware that of the corrosion and that we would need to purge the system after each usage.
But since we do not have E85 on pump here the Methanol is quite a bit cheaper.
Feb 22, 2009, 06:24 PM
#22
Hi gudmunder, I was wondering when you'd chime in! Didn't know he was a friend of yours. 
I was afraid he was actually considering running pure meth after talking with you guys about the fuel situation over there, but thought I'd at least try to steer him toward injection.
My first concern with pure methanol would be corrosion, as you already mentioned. E-85 is mildly corrosive (and most problems can be alleviated with some basic care every so often), but methanol will do very bad things to components not suited to the task. I'd forklift the entire fuel supply system: meth-safe tank+filter+seals, hard-annodized rail, and meth-safe pump and injectors. Purging only gets you so far here; for example, some viton seals will start to enlarge immediately when exposed to methanol, meaning you'll have leaks to contend with. And you do not want a methanol fire on your hands; not being able to see the flames makes putting the fire out somewhat challenging.
The other major problem he'd have would be supplying enough fuel; stoich on gas is 14.7:1, but meth is 6.4:1, meaning more than twice the fuel is needed. That's not an insurmountable problem, but on his current hardware, it's not going to happen. I'd be looking at a high volume mechanical pump (like Albert's setup) and I'd be starting out with a set of FIC's 1850cc injectors if I wanted to retain stock fitment, with an eye on rigging up some secondary injectors. I also wouldn't bother with a Green after all that work, and with an appropriate turbo, cylinder pressure starts getting to be "interesting", so you start thinking about running a partially filled block. Also, meth is hydroscopic, so you really can't let that stuff sit; as you mentioned, purging is a requirement.
As you can probably tell, this is not a configuration that would lend itself to switching back to gas the next day and driving to the grocery store.
In my opinion, pure methanol is not a fuel for mild setups; you really need to build around your choice of fuel in this case. A green with 1050s and a 255 is not something that will benefit enough from the work you'd have to put into this; I'd be looking more toward traditional high-octane gas (C16, etc; if you're comfortable with purging, some of the harsher fuels like Import or Q16 would be workable), or more commonly-available gas plus injected meth or some other additive for race weekends. A meth injection configuration is actually a pretty decent compromise for a daily-driver, especially if you go to a direct-port setup rather than a single nozzle; you can really bump up the meth volume if you need to, without subjecting any of the fuel system to it.
So, on your race car, I'd run meth.
On Dannievo's car, not so much.
(If you chat with Shep (or Adam, Mike R., Mike W., Yusuf, etc) these days, you might drop them a line about it; Shep obviously has direct experience, and the other guys have been around it long enough to know what's involved.)
I was afraid he was actually considering running pure meth after talking with you guys about the fuel situation over there, but thought I'd at least try to steer him toward injection.My first concern with pure methanol would be corrosion, as you already mentioned. E-85 is mildly corrosive (and most problems can be alleviated with some basic care every so often), but methanol will do very bad things to components not suited to the task. I'd forklift the entire fuel supply system: meth-safe tank+filter+seals, hard-annodized rail, and meth-safe pump and injectors. Purging only gets you so far here; for example, some viton seals will start to enlarge immediately when exposed to methanol, meaning you'll have leaks to contend with. And you do not want a methanol fire on your hands; not being able to see the flames makes putting the fire out somewhat challenging.
The other major problem he'd have would be supplying enough fuel; stoich on gas is 14.7:1, but meth is 6.4:1, meaning more than twice the fuel is needed. That's not an insurmountable problem, but on his current hardware, it's not going to happen. I'd be looking at a high volume mechanical pump (like Albert's setup) and I'd be starting out with a set of FIC's 1850cc injectors if I wanted to retain stock fitment, with an eye on rigging up some secondary injectors. I also wouldn't bother with a Green after all that work, and with an appropriate turbo, cylinder pressure starts getting to be "interesting", so you start thinking about running a partially filled block. Also, meth is hydroscopic, so you really can't let that stuff sit; as you mentioned, purging is a requirement.
As you can probably tell, this is not a configuration that would lend itself to switching back to gas the next day and driving to the grocery store.
In my opinion, pure methanol is not a fuel for mild setups; you really need to build around your choice of fuel in this case. A green with 1050s and a 255 is not something that will benefit enough from the work you'd have to put into this; I'd be looking more toward traditional high-octane gas (C16, etc; if you're comfortable with purging, some of the harsher fuels like Import or Q16 would be workable), or more commonly-available gas plus injected meth or some other additive for race weekends. A meth injection configuration is actually a pretty decent compromise for a daily-driver, especially if you go to a direct-port setup rather than a single nozzle; you can really bump up the meth volume if you need to, without subjecting any of the fuel system to it.
So, on your race car, I'd run meth.
On Dannievo's car, not so much.(If you chat with Shep (or Adam, Mike R., Mike W., Yusuf, etc) these days, you might drop them a line about it; Shep obviously has direct experience, and the other guys have been around it long enough to know what's involved.)
Feb 22, 2009, 10:07 PM
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Thanks for the brilliant answer Ed.
I didnt realise it is this corrosive.
It is such a darn mess that we cant get E85 over here, and only Sunoco race gas.
I am able to get industrial Ethanol but I cant for by any means get an idea if that would be ok to run if I would mix some gasoline and Top Lube into it.
regards
Gudmundur
ps: btw I am coming over to Chicago in the beginning of March to sort some things out
I didnt realise it is this corrosive.
It is such a darn mess that we cant get E85 over here, and only Sunoco race gas.
I am able to get industrial Ethanol but I cant for by any means get an idea if that would be ok to run if I would mix some gasoline and Top Lube into it.
regards
Gudmundur
ps: btw I am coming over to Chicago in the beginning of March to sort some things out
Feb 23, 2009, 12:58 AM
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I finally got an answer from the company that is selling the industrial ethanol here in Iceland.
They say it is 99,9% ethanol and then 0,36% of ethyl acitat is added to it.
I need to find out if we will be able to run this as a fuel.
We might need to add top lube or something to it, and some gasoline so that cold start wont be a biatch.
If anyone has a clue please chime in.
regards
Gudmundur
They say it is 99,9% ethanol and then 0,36% of ethyl acitat is added to it.
I need to find out if we will be able to run this as a fuel.
We might need to add top lube or something to it, and some gasoline so that cold start wont be a biatch.
If anyone has a clue please chime in.
regards
Gudmundur
Feb 23, 2009, 03:42 AM
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Hi gudmunder, I was wondering when you'd chime in! Didn't know he was a friend of yours. I was afraid he was actually considering running pure meth after talking with you guys about the fuel situation over there, but thought I'd at least try to steer him toward injection.
My first concern with pure methanol would be corrosion, as you already mentioned. E-85 is mildly corrosive (and most problems can be alleviated with some basic care every so often), but methanol will do very bad things to components not suited to the task. I'd forklift the entire fuel supply system: meth-safe tank+filter+seals, hard-annodized rail, and meth-safe pump and injectors. Purging only gets you so far here; for example, some viton seals will start to enlarge immediately when exposed to methanol, meaning you'll have leaks to contend with. And you do not want a methanol fire on your hands; not being able to see the flames makes putting the fire out somewhat challenging.
The other major problem he'd have would be supplying enough fuel; stoich on gas is 14.7:1, but meth is 6.4:1, meaning more than twice the fuel is needed. That's not an insurmountable problem, but on his current hardware, it's not going to happen. I'd be looking at a high volume mechanical pump (like Albert's setup) and I'd be starting out with a set of FIC's 1850cc injectors if I wanted to retain stock fitment, with an eye on rigging up some secondary injectors. I also wouldn't bother with a Green after all that work, and with an appropriate turbo, cylinder pressure starts getting to be "interesting", so you start thinking about running a partially filled block. Also, meth is hydroscopic, so you really can't let that stuff sit; as you mentioned, purging is a requirement.
As you can probably tell, this is not a configuration that would lend itself to switching back to gas the next day and driving to the grocery store.
In my opinion, pure methanol is not a fuel for mild setups; you really need to build around your choice of fuel in this case. A green with 1050s and a 255 is not something that will benefit enough from the work you'd have to put into this; I'd be looking more toward traditional high-octane gas (C16, etc; if you're comfortable with purging, some of the harsher fuels like Import or Q16 would be workable), or more commonly-available gas plus injected meth or some other additive for race weekends. A meth injection configuration is actually a pretty decent compromise for a daily-driver, especially if you go to a direct-port setup rather than a single nozzle; you can really bump up the meth volume if you need to, without subjecting any of the fuel system to it.
So, on your race car, I'd run meth. On Dannievo's car, not so much.
(If you chat with Shep (or Adam, Mike R., Mike W., Yusuf, etc) these days, you might drop them a line about it; Shep obviously has direct experience, and the other guys have been around it long enough to know what's involved.)
I was afraid he was actually considering running pure meth after talking with you guys about the fuel situation over there, but thought I'd at least try to steer him toward injection.My first concern with pure methanol would be corrosion, as you already mentioned. E-85 is mildly corrosive (and most problems can be alleviated with some basic care every so often), but methanol will do very bad things to components not suited to the task. I'd forklift the entire fuel supply system: meth-safe tank+filter+seals, hard-annodized rail, and meth-safe pump and injectors. Purging only gets you so far here; for example, some viton seals will start to enlarge immediately when exposed to methanol, meaning you'll have leaks to contend with. And you do not want a methanol fire on your hands; not being able to see the flames makes putting the fire out somewhat challenging.
The other major problem he'd have would be supplying enough fuel; stoich on gas is 14.7:1, but meth is 6.4:1, meaning more than twice the fuel is needed. That's not an insurmountable problem, but on his current hardware, it's not going to happen. I'd be looking at a high volume mechanical pump (like Albert's setup) and I'd be starting out with a set of FIC's 1850cc injectors if I wanted to retain stock fitment, with an eye on rigging up some secondary injectors. I also wouldn't bother with a Green after all that work, and with an appropriate turbo, cylinder pressure starts getting to be "interesting", so you start thinking about running a partially filled block. Also, meth is hydroscopic, so you really can't let that stuff sit; as you mentioned, purging is a requirement.
As you can probably tell, this is not a configuration that would lend itself to switching back to gas the next day and driving to the grocery store.
In my opinion, pure methanol is not a fuel for mild setups; you really need to build around your choice of fuel in this case. A green with 1050s and a 255 is not something that will benefit enough from the work you'd have to put into this; I'd be looking more toward traditional high-octane gas (C16, etc; if you're comfortable with purging, some of the harsher fuels like Import or Q16 would be workable), or more commonly-available gas plus injected meth or some other additive for race weekends. A meth injection configuration is actually a pretty decent compromise for a daily-driver, especially if you go to a direct-port setup rather than a single nozzle; you can really bump up the meth volume if you need to, without subjecting any of the fuel system to it.
So, on your race car, I'd run meth.
On Dannievo's car, not so much.(If you chat with Shep (or Adam, Mike R., Mike W., Yusuf, etc) these days, you might drop them a line about it; Shep obviously has direct experience, and the other guys have been around it long enough to know what's involved.)
Thank u so much for this answer, if we can get e-85 here i will try that, but do you think 1050cc is enough for fp green on e85? do i need 1200cc?
Feb 23, 2009, 08:12 AM
#27
Gudmunder: add lube and conventional fuel, and you've basically recreated E-85, minus some of the "secret sauce" that the distributors over here add to aid emissions and such. I suspect you're on the mark with that, and you'll probably come in cheaper than domestic E-85. Again, with high concentrations of any alcohol/*enol product, seals are still my #1 concern, so think about that when settling on a mix.
Danni: You're a little closer to the line than I'd like on the injectors, but can probably get by without too much trouble; I actually suspect you'll run out of pump first. See mplspilot's experience with a green and 1000cc injectors with a single Walbro 255 after switching to E-85.
I suspect you're on the mark with that, and you'll probably come in cheaper than domestic E-85. Again, with high concentrations of any alcohol/*enol product, seals are still my #1 concern, so think about that when settling on a mix.Danni: You're a little closer to the line than I'd like on the injectors, but can probably get by without too much trouble; I actually suspect you'll run out of pump first. See mplspilot's experience with a green and 1000cc injectors with a single Walbro 255 after switching to E-85.
Feb 23, 2009, 02:47 PM
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Gudmunder: add lube and conventional fuel, and you've basically recreated E-85, minus some of the "secret sauce" that the distributors over here add to aid emissions and such. I suspect you're on the mark with that, and you'll probably come in cheaper than domestic E-85. Again, with high concentrations of any alcohol/*enol product, seals are still my #1 concern, so think about that when settling on a mix.
Danni: You're a little closer to the line than I'd like on the injectors, but can probably get by without too much trouble; I actually suspect you'll run out of pump first. See mplspilot's experience with a green and 1000cc injectors with a single Walbro 255 after switching to E-85.
I suspect you're on the mark with that, and you'll probably come in cheaper than domestic E-85. Again, with high concentrations of any alcohol/*enol product, seals are still my #1 concern, so think about that when settling on a mix.Danni: You're a little closer to the line than I'd like on the injectors, but can probably get by without too much trouble; I actually suspect you'll run out of pump first. See mplspilot's experience with a green and 1000cc injectors with a single Walbro 255 after switching to E-85.
regards Daniel.
Feb 23, 2009, 02:50 PM
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Gudmunder: add lube and conventional fuel, and you've basically recreated E-85, minus some of the "secret sauce" that the distributors over here add to aid emissions and such. I suspect you're on the mark with that, and you'll probably come in cheaper than domestic E-85. Again, with high concentrations of any alcohol/*enol product, seals are still my #1 concern, so think about that when settling on a mix.
Danni: You're a little closer to the line than I'd like on the injectors, but can probably get by without too much trouble; I actually suspect you'll run out of pump first. See mplspilot's experience with a green and 1000cc injectors with a single Walbro 255 after switching to E-85.
I suspect you're on the mark with that, and you'll probably come in cheaper than domestic E-85. Again, with high concentrations of any alcohol/*enol product, seals are still my #1 concern, so think about that when settling on a mix.Danni: You're a little closer to the line than I'd like on the injectors, but can probably get by without too much trouble; I actually suspect you'll run out of pump first. See mplspilot's experience with a green and 1000cc injectors with a single Walbro 255 after switching to E-85.
