GST Motorsports

iTrader: (8)

The things some people argue about for the sake of arguing never fails to mesmerize me...

JDMEvo9RS

The E85 requires so much more fuel that it runs cooler, but you can run the gasoline calibrated AFR for ethanol leaner so that you achieve the same EGT as gasoline.

Creamo3

iTrader: (48)

12:1 on a gasoline calibrated wideband is what I target in WOT situations; sometimes a hair leaner up to 12.3:1.

I see no reason why a mostly ethanol based fuel wouldn't run cooler than standard 93 petrol at the same a/f, what's their to argue?

tkklemann

iTrader: (6)

If you would have spent more time browsing the site instead of spending more of your time looking to trash everything you read about on here, you would see that everything I said is true.

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=TC-NPT

Man sometimes I wish people would think and do their research before posting.

Here is one that you could EASILY replace your precious Zeitronix probe with, and all for a whopping $34. And the best part is, you can configure it to YOUR specifications, hence, making it better than precious Zeitronix could offer you.

And just for that comment on the tractor trailer, well, actually your post does the talking for me, so nevermind.

tkklemann

iTrader: (6)

Something interesting to check out....

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?r...USB&Nav=tema03

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

The picture represented does not represent a Zeitronix EGT probe as I already stated.

tkklemann

iTrader: (6)

Here's a deal for you...

Post a VERY GOOD DETAILED MACRO picture of your Zeitronix probe including a section of the wire & connector so I can check out exactly what it is, and I will send it to Omega, confirm their part number, and I will order OFF THE SHELF that exact same one. I need an EGT probe because I burned mine up, so if you could post a BETTER picture than you already did, I will get it ordered right away.

In fact, I already registered on their site so I could order it as soon as you get me that picture.

Maybe this could enlighten you and your business so you could provide a equal/better probe for less cost for your customers than going through Zeitronix.

I look forward to that picture so I can get my EGT probe ordered asap.

denver

iTrader: (9)

I just thought I would chime in. This is going to be a long one :-)

I have been tuning and working E36 since summer 2006.... June to be exact. In college I was on a collegiate (sp?) Racing Team, formula SAE. We designed, built, developed, budgeted, tuned, and competed student build formula one style open wheeled race cars.... See pictured below.

In 2006 we build a fuel injected turbo charged 250cc honda 4cyl engine package that ran on e85. The engine is 13:1 compression and runs about 10psi of boost and revs to a staggering 21,000 rpm (no, that is not a typo, it is 21,000) we make about 76hp because of a regulated restricted inlet size to the turbo, but the engine was designed from the factory to produce 43hp. We are using stock internals, stock head hardware, YES STOCK HEAD BOLTS not ARP head studs (thats a whole other topic to be debated).

I tuned the car at 12.7 to 13.2 A/F (.87 TO .9 Lambda, we always shot for .9 lambda because we are judged on fuel economy also so max rich power is the goal, aka .9 lambda) The car races in just about every local auto cross and this year will be attending SCCA nationals, end even full day events. It has 42deg timing at peak boost which happens between 8,000 to 10,000rpm. I have never blown up a single motor, I have never melted a single engine component. We don't look at EGT, nor have ever looked at since we started building cars in the 80s. If engine temps stay in range, and A/F stays in range for the most part everything has been "happy" We have had one issue with EGTs when we tried injecting fuel every other revolution and using the remaining fuel form the wasted shot (bank fire, bank injection controller) and the only thing we were concerned with is the engine didn't sound right. The result was two cylinders very hot (lean) two cylinders very cold (very rich), but again didnt melt anything.

I know this is not an evo, but it is tuned on the limit of everything, and I just want to show what is possible with e85. We went through everything designing that car, latent heat of vaporization, combustion temperatures, energy efficiency....the list goes on....

Now back to what we all care about EVOS, I tune my evo for close to the same as that car on e85. Im a little safer with it, 12.5 to 12.7 is my target on my car. I have been running e85 off and on since fall of last year.... no issues on 30+psi. I had a FPred for a little while and I ran that over 30psi same a/f. My car is not daily driven, and nor do I recommend those ratios for customers cars, or newbie self tuners, safer is always better especially if you cant afford to "play." I recommend 12.1/2 for peak load and 12.3/4 by max rpm load depending on boost and load tapper. Again I just wanted to show what is possible with e85. Just cause one tuner says this, another that..... doesnt mean its in stone. Oh I never once looked at EGT on my car, never had a problem.


2006


2003

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

This is good info. Our dynotesting has showed the same results. You cannot believe half of the things you read. I recently had someone try and tell me that more power will be made at XXX AFR. I am confident in our abilities but humble at the same time. We went ahead and tried what was recommended and it lost power and increased detonation.

Our dynotesting has demonstrated that there is plenty of people with incorrect information. Part of the benefit of our dynotesting is to weed through the crap and uncover the truth.

Thanks for your post.

laramie_05MR

iTrader: (20)

Way to go Denver(now go rest up). I've tuned mine to 12.2-3 at peak tq and 12.5 at peak hp.

KevinD

iTrader: (56)

one correction: F06 did have 5 EGT probes (5 omega probes recording to a national instruments EGT amp on a high speed data recording box). we recorded each cylinder about 1" away from the head (they were as close as they could get and still allow the manifold to be bolted up), and the 5th one was in the 4-1 collector right at the turbo flange (i don't remember using that data for much though). it was used primarily to analyze 4 different intake manifold designs we had fabricated. the probes were especially useful in the case of one manifold that fired the injectors across the plenum into the runner (in retrospec it definately was one of those WTF were we thinking ). the wideband showed good AFR, but the motor barely ran. the EGT showed that cylinder 1,2 (closest to the inlet of the plenum to be extremely hot for idling, and cylinders 3,4 to be barely running cold. obviously the fuel was getting pushed to the back end of the plenum as air came it. the wideband never showed this, and a single EGT wouldn't have either. but 4 probes tells the whole story, and DEFINATELY should be used when trying/designing different intake manifolds. for the record, the intake manifold we went with on that car was a straight forward log manifold, with a good size plenum, long runners, injectors in the runner facing the valves. there was also a 5th injector used up stream in the intake piping, which dispersed well (EGT readings were flat across all 4 cylinders). i don't have any numbers for anything, but i still have the data stashed away somewhere.

denver

iTrader: (9)

I forgot all about those test.... and that stupid manifold (the split banana... hahahaha

However, when I took over tuning that car I have never seen, used, or needed that EGT information, and didnt you guys blow it up like 5 times (No motors blew up a a result as KevinD tuning the car either, Im just poking fun at him, we were both on the team a number of years together and work together now too, our faculty adviser Woods, takes credit for 1, engine builder 1, and the others the lack of funds and time to get new parts, they had catastrophic mechanical problems due to used parts, my self and kevin never blew this car up just so the record is straight) I know I know... its because woods didnt understand the concept of decreasing timing with increasing boost....+50* of timing advance is toooooo much at peak boost....

I do agree for new concepts, and design of parts, intakes especially, as Kevin suggest you should get as much data as is available to you, egt being one of those, but I think for majority of the cases, you expect the manufacture to do that home work for you, and have Constancy across the cylinders. General tuning... I'm not sure its that useful.... at leas a single

Also, in my original post, the other time I mentioned using EGTs we have an inconstancy across cylinders.... so I would say in development you should have a minimum of an egt per cylinder.... or at least an point and shoot thermometer... you can tell a lot just from the surface temperature of the exhaust manifold near the port.

URBANRCR

It seems as though when certain people show up in a thread no matter what it turns into an argument and nothing gets accomplished its absolutely ridiculous.

To answer the question you'll want to be in the 12-12.5 range.

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

Looked into an EGT mentioned earlier to find that its not a sufficient unit to support the EGT's we run.

OMEGA thermocouple TC-J-NPT-G-72 maximum temp reading = 650C

GST Motorsports

iTrader: (8)

We have it all logging in Motec but thanks for the link.