Cured my knocking issues. Wasn't the tune.
Oct 26, 2006, 10:12 PM
#16
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Anything over 5 should be avoided, 0-3 are pretty normal, anything over that will alter your octane number or pull timing anyway..
Honestly, although I make a big deal of minimizing knock, it takes quite a bit of knock to do damage thanks to the really good protection the ECU offers.. But you want to minimize the risk.. Also, you will get knock in daily driving, its the nature of how the fuel system works, just focus on open loop high load areas that get knock..
Honestly, although I make a big deal of minimizing knock, it takes quite a bit of knock to do damage thanks to the really good protection the ECU offers.. But you want to minimize the risk.. Also, you will get knock in daily driving, its the nature of how the fuel system works, just focus on open loop high load areas that get knock..
Oct 27, 2006, 04:51 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by TTP Engineering
Regardless of knocksums high enough to cause damage, knocksums themselves will pull back timing further than where would be optimum for performance. In simple terms, programming more timing than the car can take will actually make it SLOWER than programming LESS timing to reach the knock threshold.
Oct 27, 2006, 05:01 AM
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I read above about having the engine dampner....I have the Weapon R engine dampner.
Some times under load my dampner will rattle and the knock count will go up. I have adjusted it, but the cheap braket keeps moving...
Some times under load my dampner will rattle and the knock count will go up. I have adjusted it, but the cheap braket keeps moving...
Oct 27, 2006, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by TTP Engineering
Regardless of knocksums high enough to cause damage, knocksums themselves will pull back timing further than where would be optimum for performance. In simple terms, programming more timing than the car can take will actually make it SLOWER than programming LESS timing to reach the knock threshold.
But, when the issue is mechanical, you can try and tune out the knock till you're blue in the face and it will still be there AND may still pull timing.
I've learned that there are many variables you must look at before just saying "my car has knock... it must be a too agressive tune..."
Oct 27, 2006, 10:04 AM
#20
Originally Posted by kapolani
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement....
But, when the issue is mechanical, you can try and tune out the knock till you're blue in the face and it will still be there AND may still pull timing.
I've learned that there are many variables you must look at before just saying "my car has knock... it must be a too agressive tune..."
But, when the issue is mechanical, you can try and tune out the knock till you're blue in the face and it will still be there AND may still pull timing.
I've learned that there are many variables you must look at before just saying "my car has knock... it must be a too agressive tune..."
Oct 29, 2006, 02:39 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by kapolani
Dan -
That is exactly what was happening to me.
I don't know if you want to search for my posts regarding this, but most of the knock was starting off boost. Around 2500rpm. Sometimes it would spike high - like 20 counts or so, then decrease as the pull contiuned.
So, for you, when you got _real_ knock it would typically occur like this:
rpm knock
3000 2
3050 2
3100 3
3150 3
3200 4
3250 4
.
.
.
.
.
5000 10
5050 11
5100 12
Is this what you are saying?
I'm researching/learning so when I start to fiddle with the tune myself I understand what's happening and will be able to distinguish between the two.
That is exactly what was happening to me.
I don't know if you want to search for my posts regarding this, but most of the knock was starting off boost. Around 2500rpm. Sometimes it would spike high - like 20 counts or so, then decrease as the pull contiuned.
So, for you, when you got _real_ knock it would typically occur like this:
rpm knock
3000 2
3050 2
3100 3
3150 3
3200 4
3250 4
.
.
.
.
.
5000 10
5050 11
5100 12
Is this what you are saying?
I'm researching/learning so when I start to fiddle with the tune myself I understand what's happening and will be able to distinguish between the two.
Yeah, but I have to cover my *** and say typically this is what one looks for, increasing knock sums. A slightly ticking lash adjuster will do the same thing but even the oldest of evo's should be a few years away from this problem.
To be honest, I have such a ****load of time looking at the factory knock sensor and people like Al do not. He drives an AEM trailer queen. From 86,000 miles to 163,500 I've either had my datalogger on in the eclipse or the stock boost guage programmed to spit out knock. Nothing against anybody but that is where we stand. I can look at knock and tell with a good amount of accuracy what is causing it and how to fix it wether it be real or fake. The ****ing balance shaft one really makes me laugh. "I just did a timing belt, everything is in time and it runs like crap". "Yeah, your out of phase". "No I'm not, your an idiot". Ok dood LOL.
You'll also notice that the 4g63 has some second and third order harmonics at 2800 rpm's. In some cars you can get false knock just at this rpm while cruising.
I like to keep knock below 5 for a daily driver. I'll tune for 0 and the 5 is a saftey for bad gas. Why so conservitive? Think of knock as time accrued pounding on your rod bearings. Sure you can get away with knock in the short term, however prolonged knock adds up and pounds your rod bearings till one day you spin it.
The old 6 bolt 4g63's are extremly tolerant to detonation abuse and its a good thing cuz our cylinder heads suck compared to my evo 9. We have to detonate to make any respectable power especially on pump gas. I mean, I've made quite a few quarter mile passes with 43 counts of knock. The last half of this year I was making passes with 20 counts of knock. The car was faster with more boost so thats what I gave it.
Now with as many locals as have had rod bearing issues on mail in flashes I'm weary of running more than 5 counts for a daily driver. The parts are still too expensive for me to justify the extra 5-10 hp that could be made by pusing it a little to far.
Oh, also when I was in california I logged and was going to tune a stock 2005 evo. On 91 octane **** gas he was knocking 8 counts in boost sometims climbing to 14 counts at redline. I guess we can all watch how those stock models age and see if we can justify running 5-10 counts for a daily on pump gas and have good service life on the motor.
Last edited by dan l; Oct 29, 2006 at 02:42 PM.
Oct 29, 2006, 06:50 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by dan l
Yeah, but I have to cover my *** and say typically this is what one looks for, increasing knock sums. A slightly ticking lash adjuster will do the same thing but even the oldest of evo's should be a few years away from this problem.
To be honest, I have such a ****load of time looking at the factory knock sensor and people like Al do not. He drives an AEM trailer queen. From 86,000 miles to 163,500 I've either had my datalogger on in the eclipse or the stock boost guage programmed to spit out knock. Nothing against anybody but that is where we stand. I can look at knock and tell with a good amount of accuracy what is causing it and how to fix it wether it be real or fake. The ****ing balance shaft one really makes me laugh. "I just did a timing belt, everything is in time and it runs like crap". "Yeah, your out of phase". "No I'm not, your an idiot". Ok dood LOL.
You'll also notice that the 4g63 has some second and third order harmonics at 2800 rpm's. In some cars you can get false knock just at this rpm while cruising.
I like to keep knock below 5 for a daily driver. I'll tune for 0 and the 5 is a saftey for bad gas. Why so conservitive? Think of knock as time accrued pounding on your rod bearings. Sure you can get away with knock in the short term, however prolonged knock adds up and pounds your rod bearings till one day you spin it.
The old 6 bolt 4g63's are extremly tolerant to detonation abuse and its a good thing cuz our cylinder heads suck compared to my evo 9. We have to detonate to make any respectable power especially on pump gas. I mean, I've made quite a few quarter mile passes with 43 counts of knock. The last half of this year I was making passes with 20 counts of knock. The car was faster with more boost so thats what I gave it.
Now with as many locals as have had rod bearing issues on mail in flashes I'm weary of running more than 5 counts for a daily driver. The parts are still too expensive for me to justify the extra 5-10 hp that could be made by pusing it a little to far.
Oh, also when I was in california I logged and was going to tune a stock 2005 evo. On 91 octane **** gas he was knocking 8 counts in boost sometims climbing to 14 counts at redline. I guess we can all watch how those stock models age and see if we can justify running 5-10 counts for a daily on pump gas and have good service life on the motor.
To be honest, I have such a ****load of time looking at the factory knock sensor and people like Al do not. He drives an AEM trailer queen. From 86,000 miles to 163,500 I've either had my datalogger on in the eclipse or the stock boost guage programmed to spit out knock. Nothing against anybody but that is where we stand. I can look at knock and tell with a good amount of accuracy what is causing it and how to fix it wether it be real or fake. The ****ing balance shaft one really makes me laugh. "I just did a timing belt, everything is in time and it runs like crap". "Yeah, your out of phase". "No I'm not, your an idiot". Ok dood LOL.
You'll also notice that the 4g63 has some second and third order harmonics at 2800 rpm's. In some cars you can get false knock just at this rpm while cruising.
I like to keep knock below 5 for a daily driver. I'll tune for 0 and the 5 is a saftey for bad gas. Why so conservitive? Think of knock as time accrued pounding on your rod bearings. Sure you can get away with knock in the short term, however prolonged knock adds up and pounds your rod bearings till one day you spin it.
The old 6 bolt 4g63's are extremly tolerant to detonation abuse and its a good thing cuz our cylinder heads suck compared to my evo 9. We have to detonate to make any respectable power especially on pump gas. I mean, I've made quite a few quarter mile passes with 43 counts of knock. The last half of this year I was making passes with 20 counts of knock. The car was faster with more boost so thats what I gave it.
Now with as many locals as have had rod bearing issues on mail in flashes I'm weary of running more than 5 counts for a daily driver. The parts are still too expensive for me to justify the extra 5-10 hp that could be made by pusing it a little to far.
Oh, also when I was in california I logged and was going to tune a stock 2005 evo. On 91 octane **** gas he was knocking 8 counts in boost sometims climbing to 14 counts at redline. I guess we can all watch how those stock models age and see if we can justify running 5-10 counts for a daily on pump gas and have good service life on the motor.
What really sucks about phantom knock is that the ECU doesn't care what causes it. It see's knock and if it's severe enough it'll start to pull timing. That really sucks when you're trying to make power.
Oct 29, 2006, 08:58 PM
#23
Originally Posted by kapolani
What really sucks about phantom knock is that the ECU doesn't care what causes it. It see's knock and if it's severe enough it'll start to pull timing. That really sucks when you're trying to make power.
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