dan l

iTrader: (3)

I would like to thank Works for the good laugh on a sunday evening. I'm gonna get back to getting my hands dirty working on my evo and eclipse learning and prooving things to myself.

wrcwannabe

iTrader: (1)

I too grew up in the 60's and 70's, learning as much from books and engineering texts as well as hands on experience. I dont buy many parts but they are thoroughly researched first. I also like to do most work myself. It gives me more insight as to how things actually are supposed to work and more satisfaction from knowing the job was done properly.

It must discourage some people to find out that the source of your information has been passed by..or...never knew what was up to start with. Certainly from some of the posts in this thread, people have lost confidence in that particular vendor.

I strongly encourage all who read this thread to bear this in mind:

If you have limited ability or want someone to work on your car, thoroughly research the vendor. Keep yourself abreast of the cutting edge of technology. Invest time in learning how systems work on your car. Question things even if they come from so called experts. Finally share your experiences and knowledge..freely...we are all here because of this wonderful car........called an EVO..... and I for one prefer the experience to be long and rich.

Milburn

AlwaysinBoost

iTrader: (17)

well said Jack.

9sec9

iTrader: (2)

MalibuJack, I don't live on this website, but use it to increase my knowledge of what I own. I've seen several of your posts during the last several months. I too grew up in the 50's, 60's and 70's during the muscle car era. Owned several Mopars and have a very good base knowledge of what it takes to make a car fast. I've been programming on a Unix system for 25 years and I still am having a difficult time grasping all of the Evo's tables and relationships between the tables. Your, and Al's, comments should be respected by those of us with ability to do the job, but not the knowledge. Many of us who are still crawling look up to those of you who are not only walking, but running. Thanks for the input.

codgi

iTrader: (22)

Yep. It was a quote from one of the guys from SecurityFocus.com (his name wouldn't fit in the sig on the first forum I used it on...and I just coped it here ).

But yeah it is in many ways what people need to understand. The same thing we see today on this board with ECUFlash has happened elsewhere in software. Linux/OpenOffice is out there yet more Windows/MS Office is pirated than either of them is used.

At the end of the day free stuff and free tools can do many things. But they can only do those things in the hands of people who understand how to use them to their fullest potential. Anyone on this board can pick up ECUFlash and tune their own evo to be better than it was before...its still going to take an Al or a TTP or a Jestr or a Works or whoever to be able to successfully flash and tune a wide variety of cars to be better than they were before.

The last bit is what will allow those businesses to stay in business and still make money. So should they try to dis-credit something because they are frightened it will take a chunk out of their business? NO...in fact they probably lose more customers that way.

Instead they need to focus on improving their customer experience and keeping their tunes up to date...cause now every bit thats changed in those maps is going to be under scrutiny .

I would also say its suicide to have someone representing your company in a technical conversation who has no techinical knowledge. Its fine to have them hedge at first...but once they are locked up its time to call in the real deal...and if the real deal can't come out then they need to opt out of that convo real fast .

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

Jack

I find your words very intersting here

Its funny you know how the internet works

As someone who practially lives on the internet 24/7, I can tell you I learned everything I know about tuning cars from the interent and there is a lot of great data out there


It is funny how the "consumer" forgets guys like David V who were pioneers and who did a lot of great things - like making race cars and writing books

I invested huge sums on reflashing equipment, spent a ton of money on dyno R & D for months and months and went from being the first guy in the 11's with my evo (ironically using a base Works' reflash with my SAFC tuning on top) to totally modifying it to the last degree in the pursuit of data and experience.

While I do think that Works said some silly things in their frustration over the situation on the other forum - I also feel that they do a very good job and know what they are doing.

The fact they raise over there is well made - they tuned a lot of cars and none of them every had any problems and their tuning has proven reliable.

I dont want to participate in a huge pissing match, just wanted to make a point based upon what you said.

While I may chose a different "theory" of tuning than Works - I must say that they have provided great products and conducted themselves in a very honorable manner.

Many of the "negative remarks" and "attacks" leveled against tuners on the internet are made by individuals assoctiated with tuner shops and those who are recieving free goods and services by the same shops.

I wish the end users would look at WHAT the tuner has done and what kind of experience and track record they have when considering these comments.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

Al, for the love of god and all that is holy, get a proofreader.

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

I agree with you 100%

The bottom line is with the Evo Flash I am not making as many sales as before as there are more tuners

However, with my experience and this great tool, I am doing an even better job than I have ever done

Ecuflash and Evo Scan has made my tuning better, safer and easier to do

This all benefits the customer

The old tech tom equipment was ALL I had to use along with some self made logging tools - a very primative way to go about things - BUT it was all that we had at the time

Kind of sad knowing that Tech Tom nailed me for $6,500 for the IX update right before the ecu flash came out - but it was satisfying to figure out how to make it work on the IX's

Technology is enevitable and those who fight it will be at the wrog end of the stick at the end of the day

When I was a young kid I used to go with my Dad who was a computer guy back in the day - when he ran programs on a large main frame that took up several thousand square feet which were rented friom large companies at night when they did not use them. His car a BMW 2002 Tii - no reflashing going on back them either.

Here comes technology, deal with it, master it, use it - OR your day will be done

coolguycooz

ok guys, i went to the Works meet in Frisco.

Here is the deal i talked to the person that does the flashes. I asked him about the 600 + maps they claim the ECU has.

Anyways the guy almost seemed like he didnt know what he was talking about.

I was like so whats up with that post of the 600+ maps how do you guys know this, and have you guys traced a purpose for each one. And hes all well we dont know all of em, but i know a guy that has inside info and has logged them all. I was like whos this guy, hes all well hes got info on the inside. WTF is the inside?

Then i proceeded to ask them simple questions about timing, and AFR, and he was just oh it depends, this and that. You know how you can sometimes tell somebody is trying to answer your questions with BS it kind of felt like that.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I really am sympathetic to the tuner shops, because I understand what it is they go through to get business, establish a reputation, develop products, and whatnot..

The one thing I have to say is that Works has done alot of things early on, and made things available early on that we needed to modify our cars, or build fast race cars. Its unfair that they are getting beat up like this. I feel bad that I came down on their representation on the internet as hard as I did.

I have said this several times, I don't have a problem with their products, I actually like their products, and would buy them if I could afford them. Its unfair for some posters to slam them because they market and brand/resell parts, every shop does that to some extent when they find something that does the job. Why reinvent the wheel. The issue I had was in the way they chose to address a concern that members had. By trying to discredit a tool that is known to work instead of handling the core issue that was brought up in an appropriate manner for a tuner shop. Its not always a wise idea to immediately come to a conversation on the defensive without setting up your argument in a nonconfrontational manner.


Not every tuner understands the inner workings of the tools their using or the ECU, they understand how to manipulate maps and make power. This is okay, tuners need to understand engine theory, volumetric efficiency, cause and effect, etc. its really not important that they know every single map available, or understand how every table relates to everything else. What is at issue is the comments that are untrue. A reputable shop's word carries alot of weight, and misinformation can hurt others as it can hurt them.

Everyone is guilty of occasionally posting bad info, its really how we admit to our mistakes and move on from there, that shows what a person is made of.

Its okay to not "know it all" Nobody does. Its okay to make educated guesses, and its also okay to admit when your wrong. Heck, I do it all the time.. Its important that if you do make a mistake, you make it right though..

So you went to works, and didnt get a warm fuzzy feeling about the guys knowledge. Again, thats okay, you can use someone else that makes you feel more comfortable. I'm sure the tuner was repeating information that his Software engineer had told him. Some may be true, some may not, some is exaggerated, etc. The mistake is repeating data as fact without being 100% sure can leave you open for damage.

So... To summarize the whole thread...

1) Works products were innovative at the time they were first released, and they still have good products.
2) One of their reps posted bad information, which he is getting beat up about
3) Several customers have some legitimate concerns about their tunes
4) Too many people are jumping all over the knock sums and painting the tunes as bad, they may not be, just not optimized for some parts combinations. This happens..
5) This is the internet, the wild west of information, you can't come to a gunfight with a slingshot.
6) The online world lacks Face to Face, and therefore many time lacks the mutual respect that people have for eachother when confronted face to face.. This is why I dont like the internet much (Sadly because my life exists on it.. LOL)

If you have a concern about a product, thats okay, as long as you choose to address your concerns in an appropriate manner. But the defense needs to also be addressed in appropriate means. It also means that people should only contribute to threads factual (as best of their knowledge) data they have that can clearly defend their viewpoint.

Sounds almost like being in court eh? If you want to make a point, you first have to agree to disagree, you will never change a persons mind by attacking their beliefs, only to sway their opinion after respectfully countering them. The key is, you won't likely change the persons opinion, but thats okay, you only have to make your points, and allow others to make their decisions after seeing both sides. This is how debates, politics, the legal system, etc works..

I really think that this is a good conversation to have, but its not about a good or bad tune at this point. They need to discuss the tunes with their concerned customers. Let them do their damage control and leave them alone for awhile.

ST

iTrader: (8)

And the same guy that wrote Car Hacks and Mods for Dummies, http://www.amazon.com/Hacks-Mods-Dum...334094-6992957 , yet doesn't condone Evoscan / ECUFlash eh? /rolleyes

Can you say...conflict of interest?

DavidV

Thanks for the kind words, Al.

-- DavidV

DavidV

Have you read the book? If not, maybe you should... I don't see any hypocrisy unless you are strictly assuming what I say in it based on the title.

Once you read through it, you'll see I address several different approaches for different types of enthusiasts:

(1) Standalone ECUs
(2) Piggyback controllers
(3) Reflashes and EPROMS

Each approach has its pros and cons, and each is better suited for different kinds of car owners.

Using myself as an example, I love having a standalone ECU, wideband O2 sensor and datalogger for my MR2 and being able to change every parameter based on the learning that we do on and off the dyno. My car is a constant work in progress, is out of warranty, and is far too modified to use anything remotely off-the-shelf on it.

For some other people, a simple "set it and forget it" reflash or EPROM is the way to go. I use an off-the-shelf EPROM for my BMW, which has standard bolt-ons, and the fact that the car is a daily driver, needs to pass emissions, and doesn't get changed around enough to warrant constantly revisiting the ECU makes this the ideal choice for me.

Some enthusiasts will want the ability to trade/modify and manipulate maps, but at the end of the day, this is a comparatively small percentage of the buying public. By and large, most consumers still want the simplicity, convenience, peace of mind, and lower cost of a ready-made solution for their mildly modified cars.

Different strokes for different folks.

In my Dummies book, I explain how a reader can set his/her short, medium, and long term project goals and budget time and resources accordingly. This is the only way to figure out which is the best suited approach to meet those goals.

There is no doubt that the EvoScan/ECUflash has its place - and an important one - for some Evo consumers looking to spend a lot of time tweaking their maps but who need to retain a factory ECU because they run their car in a class that prohibits standalone ECUs. It also would benefit smaller shops looking to develop products for the Evo who don't already have and/or can't afford or justify the expense of a factory MUT tool.

Back when I was with WORKS, there were consumers that I spoke to that I personally encouraged to buy standalones and similar "open source" technologies that I knew weren't going to be happy with the limitations of a basic reflash. WORKS did not get the dollars those consumers had to spend on that day, but I was confident that I was giving them good advice and that they might still come back to WORKS for other products down the line. There were also those consumers that I knew would be perfect candidates for it.

At the end of the day, a business that understands what its audience wants and can benefit from is the one that will be around to stand the test of time.

Also, like it or not, the "custom mapping" resulting from datalogging individual customer cars that you advocate as being superior to anything WORKS has to offer, is currently offered by WORKS and has been for years. It is expensive as hell, and most people would be better off with standalone ECUs that would want something like that, but the WORKS Time Attack Evo (Limited Class winner in 2004, 2005 and second place in 2006) runs a stock WORKS reflashed ECU. So does the USTCC Championship Evo.

However, if a customer called me and wanted to build a car for Time Attack, I would recommend a standalone. Why? Well, the WORKS Time Attack car has a highly developed reflash library because countless hours were committed to it in-house. Any paying customer would have spent so many thousands of dollars to get there, they could likely have bought several top-shelf Motec systems for the development time spent on that car.

The USTCC Evo is slightly different in that, as I understand it, that car had to retain the factory ECU. Still, it was important enough that price was no object in the amount of fine-tuning needed to build an exhaustive library of highly customized flashes specific to that car.

On the other hand, most anyone else would have been better off with either (a) an off-the-shelf reflash solution or (b) a complete ECU replacement like a Power FC/AEM/etc. bundled with a wideband and datalogger.

Like I said, different strokes for different folks.

Does that help?

-- DavidV

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

Wait, I thought evoflash logged incorrect information? How can small shops and individuals use this tool to develop products and tunes if it gives incorrect information about what the car is doing?

DavidV

I never said that.

-- DavidV