l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

I have a setup similar to nj:

LC-1 (~200)
SSi4 (~120) let's you log 4 0-5 V sensors
GM 3.3bar (forgot the exact price, but around $100 for sensor and harness)

Then, if necessary, you can add in XD-16 gauges. I personally have two, one for AFR (LC-1) and one for boost (GM 3.3 bar).



Eric

jfitzpat

We offer two wideband controllers: LM-1 and LC-1. LM-1 is pretty much a self contained solution. It offers wideband measurement, has a built in LCD display, has 5 aux analog inputs, and even does stand alone logging (which you can then download into your PC).

LC-1 is just wideband measurement. Information is output via a serial port (for PC logging) and two programmable analog outputs (gauge, external datalogger, simulate a narrowband sensor to an ECU, etc.)

For MAP input you have several choices as well. We have simple input modules like SSI-4 (4 inputs for voltage or frequency) and TC-4 (4 thermocouple inputs), and more sophisticated modules like the LMA-3, which has built in sensors for MAP, accell, side force, and a thermocouple input., as well as inputs for 0-5, frequency, duty cycle, and RPM.

All the devices are chainable and can be combined in multiples. For example, 8 LC-1s, two TC-4s and two SSI-4s is a combination we see a lot in pro racing involving a carb - so adding later is never a problem.

For your purposes I would probably suggest LC-1 (typically < $200 street price w/sensor) + LMA-3 (typically $210 street), since all you would need is to hook up a hose and you would also pick up accell and side force, plus have some analog inputs available.

However, an LC-1 + an SSI-4 (typically about $120 street) would also be a good solution. You would need to add a MAP sensor, but would still have room for expansion.

As mentioned, the above only offers data logging capability. If you would like a live, in car, gauge we really only offer one, the XD-16. It is pretty spiffy, for example all the LEDs are RGB and programmable, can generate warnings on mutiple input signals, and so on, but is not especially cheap (about $200-$220 street). However, because the LC-1 (like the LM-1) has programmable analog outputs, a lot of our dealers create bundles with other, less expensive meters. There is a growing number of 3rd party in-car instrument offerings that take our serial data directly, but they tend to be upscale.

As to pros, our wideband measurements are the fastest and most accurate (this is being contested in another thread, but the same 'shoot out' seems to 'prove' that all lambda measurements under $35000 are utter crap - and this simply is not so). This is a claim that we are willing to put to the test any time (in the other thread, I offered to put up my own money and help to buy calibrated gasses, or whatever), we are also modular, and committed to an 'open' architecture.

Modularity lets you add and expand without having to reinvest. Open, both in terms of aggressively supporting 3rd party software and add ins to our own software gives you lots of choices in terms of tools.

Cons, well, bottom line the extra speed and precision may or may not matter to you. With new sensors in good shape, many offerings give very respectable readings when tested with calibrated gasses. Certainly sufficient fo basic engine monitoring and protection. Even for tuning, our extra speed really only comes into play when you start to push the performance envelope - again, with new sensors in good shape, a number of offerings will only be a column off in a fuel map because of acquisition delays.

So, if performance tuning isn't your primary goal, some other offerings are probably well worth a look. A 4-9 acquisitions per second instrument with .004-.008 lambda accuracy is simply more forgiving when it comes to things like ground offsets than a 200 acquisitions per second <.002 lambda instrument. If you really don't need the precision and aren't getting any benefits from our openness and modularity, several other offereings are probably worth a look.

I don't think that anyone is really a clear winner on price. We're sometimes $50 cheaper for basic PC logging (primarily because we have some serious economics of scale on sensors and our core wideband module), others are sometimes $50 cheaper on a different combination of features - and there is always some spectacular deal on eBay. But, while I think we are quite strong in terms of hard core measurements and tuning, other companies are quite strong in terms of things like design and styling of their in-car instrumentation, feature sets for enthusiasts (as opposed to engine buildiers and tuners), and so on.

To make it clear, I am an engineer at Innovate Technologies with direct involvement in the motorsports division - so I am hardly unbiased! However, I am happy to help anyone back up my technical claims with their own independant testing and would strongly encourage you to solicit other views.

Good Luck,
-jjf

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

I also have two XD-16 one for boost and one for AFR. I have the LED set-up to help me stay out of boost in daily driving, all green for vaccuum, one blue LED is the last vaccuum before boost, and red LEDs for boost. Peak boost (21.xx psi) is indicated in teal with red before and after.

Do you log EGT at all? What set-up are you using for EGTs if you are logging them?

lookslikeanevo

iTrader: (23)

open port...cable has been available for a long time...i dont think innovate is th one the designed it or anything for the evo...

check out tactrix.com or openecu.org

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

Being that you are wanting meth injection and likely the safest system available in case of a problem with your injection setup, there is really no question as to the system that will suit your needs the best Chris.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

I have my XD-16's programmed in a similar way with the colors on the dial, etc.

As far as EGT, I can get into a long discussion about it, but IMHO it just isn't necessary for my needs. You'll get people on both sides of the fence on this, but I just don't want to get involved in pages of discussion.

With our ability to log knock, AFR, and timing, monitoring EGT becomes a little redundant. There are special cases where you may want to know the temps, when using anti-lag for example, but generally in tuning a turbocharged car, we have better tools and logging capabilities where, IMO, monitoring/logging EGT isn't necessary. Before we had these logging abilities, the main use that I saw people using EGTs for was to monitor when timing was being pulled, but with our ability to monitor knock, we don't need that.

Again, there are special cases where EGTs are useful, just like any other logging tool, but for the general tuner today, I don't think it's that needed.


Eric

jfitzpat

Nor have we ever claimed to. Most of the openecu community uses our free SDK to bring Innovate Wideband data into their freeware and shareware loggers. The Enginuity project is multi platform and Java so they can't use the ActiveX control. We are always interested in promoting tuning, so I volunteered for the Java port and Logger integration and my boss bought a Tactrix cable.

But generosity did not extend to buying a Subaru or Evo, so I started by implementing OBD-II protocols for the Tactrix so I could use my wife's Lexus for devleopment. I then begged and borrowed a couple of hours with a Subaru and an Evo to add SSM and MUT protocol support. Those efforts are all open source at the www.enginuity.org site (CableTools).

Since I'm also doing the extended SDK for LW-3, using OpenPort as one of the test cases was a no brainer. Again, the plug ins are being released as source as well. The idea is that hobbiests and enthusiasts are welcome to use our free logger as a platform for their own efforts (just like we release information and SDKs for third party loggers to use our wideband and other acquisition hardware).

We released the plugins a little early, along with a package to both help promote the open ecu community (although we do some very good business with many of the big reflash players, we ultimately believe that the long term health of tuning requires open ECUs and the free flow of information) and to let a small group of die hards save some money.

Contrary to all the sinister speculation, there is very little expectation of a sales windfall. And it should be clear to anyone who visits enginuity.org, openecu.org, and this forum, that I am willing to go to considerable effort to get other cable flavors (ex. 1.2) and other combinations working - in other words, no purchase nec.

-jjf

jfitzpat

I see both sides of this argument. I also do quite a bit of light aviation where EGT is often the only tool available. But, personally, if I have good wideband measurements I'd much rather have CHT than EGT for basic automotive stuff.

Of course, I'd rather have true peak pressure instead of CHT, but that will have to wait for another Klaus invention...

-jjf

lookslikeanevo

iTrader: (23)

oh i didnt mean that you did... just stated that is has been available for a long time...

i applaud your efforts in supporting self tuning and the like tho

nothere

iTrader: (23)

"peak pressure instead of CHT, but that will have to wait for another Klaus invention"

when?

jfitzpat

jfitzpat

Actually, you raised a question about that system's ability to properlly identify detonation margin in another thread, but I didn't find the data very compelling.

In any event, if a user is interested in fuels and blends other than straight mogas, they want a system that allows programmable AFR multipliers and, preferably, lambda readout as well. Lambda is fuel independant and the ideal way to tune when experimenting with blends.

Of course a number of wideband controllers, including both of ours, offer adjustable multipliers and native lambda output.

-jjf

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

I am not even certain what you are referring to. I am certain the rest of the forum is just as confused by your jibberish.

ZEITRONIX widebands monitor AND log both Lambda AND AFR out of the box. You do not need additional($$$) add ons and modular boxes in order to log RPM, TPS, and AUX input either much like the Innovate unit. In addition to that, the standard unit at $274 also has a simulated narrowband output with programmable switching point for potential fuel savings as well as a linear output for one's standalone EMS system, if so equipped.

Roberto

This was turning into a great Logworks information thread. I'd like to see the "whos lambda and logging hardware is best" topic be broken off into a seperate thread.

jfitzpat

Agreed. Hopefully my lengthy post above at least contains some useful info about our product line and lambda in general.

-jjf