NO wideband with flash!!!!!
Dec 30, 2006, 11:42 PM
#2
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If you want to put the trust in someone else guessing at your map, it's up to you.
It really has nothing to do with the ecuflash forum....aside from the fact that you are loading the map in.
If you want to actually do research and mess with maps, you should be tuning it yourself.
The question is...if you had a wideband and bought a map, would you actually change anything?
It really has nothing to do with the ecuflash forum....aside from the fact that you are loading the map in.
If you want to actually do research and mess with maps, you should be tuning it yourself.
The question is...if you had a wideband and bought a map, would you actually change anything?
Dec 31, 2006, 04:51 AM
#3
I went this route and made a few minor tweaks without a WB....I am now starting to do more changes and will need a WB to make everything optimal.
Bottom line, you can get a great base flash from folks like Jestrtuning, TTP, and others and just call it a day or get a custom tune or do your own custom tune...If you start tuning yourself you will want a WB and Boost logging (IMHO)....
I have been looking at Zeitronix and Innovative. The one thing Innovative has that I really like is the ability to recalibrate the WB sensor. Zeitronix on the other hand is cheaper, logging unit is smaller, and was deemed more accurate in a WB shootout.
Bottom line, you can get a great base flash from folks like Jestrtuning, TTP, and others and just call it a day or get a custom tune or do your own custom tune...If you start tuning yourself you will want a WB and Boost logging (IMHO)....
I have been looking at Zeitronix and Innovative. The one thing Innovative has that I really like is the ability to recalibrate the WB sensor. Zeitronix on the other hand is cheaper, logging unit is smaller, and was deemed more accurate in a WB shootout.
Dec 31, 2006, 07:03 AM
#6
I think what he meant is you have no way of knowing if the tune is safe..
With minimal mods and stock injectors, its pretty easy for a tuner to "Guess" at the fueling and generally not do damage, once it gets more complex it really is important to have the wideband.
My suggestion is consider it the cost of doing business.. The money you save on a through the mail flash, is spent on the wideband, but it gives you a level of comfort in knowing that things won't blow up in your face.
With minimal mods and stock injectors, its pretty easy for a tuner to "Guess" at the fueling and generally not do damage, once it gets more complex it really is important to have the wideband.
My suggestion is consider it the cost of doing business.. The money you save on a through the mail flash, is spent on the wideband, but it gives you a level of comfort in knowing that things won't blow up in your face.
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Dec 31, 2006, 11:35 AM
#10
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The resistor itself is really only a rudimentary form of calibration. The 'curve' is established by large scale sampling and averaging of sensors by the manufacturer. The resistor is puts stoich (lambda 1.0) at a known point. In other words, the only thing that the resistor insures is that 14.7:1 with gasoline will be quite accurate.
Individual sensors can very quite a bit from the average curve. That is why a number of manufacturers sell 'calibrated' sensors for their precision controllers. This is also how the 'open' wideband that the Megasquirt guys have been experimenting with addresses the problem. Basically, you take calibrated gasses and build a table of 'corrections' for the variations of a given sensor. The problem with this is that it increases the cost of replacement sensors and precision will still degrade with time. Still, if a sensor is relatively new and in good shape, this approach can yield very good results.
As noted, we do not use the typical measurement principle. We have a patented measurement principle that allows stock sensors to be field calibrated for precision grade measurements. There are actually two calibrations. When a sensor is first installed you run a heater calibration. You normally do not have to run this calibration again until you either replace the sensor or the controller detects that the sensor has aged to the point where measurements are out of spec (it reports an error). The other calibration is a free air calibration. This corrects for measurement errors from atmospheric variation. Most manufacturers ignore this error source, since it is relatively small (and if they are relying solely on the stoich resistor, pressure variation is the least of their accuracy problems), though quite a few of the pro racing types have told me it is critical for them.
Regarding cost, frankly, I wouldn't buy any measurement tool solely on price. I'd start by defining my needs/wants and ranking them in priority. Different manufacturers have strengths in different areas, so picking the units that are a good fit for your priorities, then looking at who has a good bargain for your specific setup is a sound way to go.
Regarding the shootout, I'd go farther. If you believe the shootout in question - don't buy a wideband! Use an EGT gauge instead. The report shows all the widebands grossly out of spec, basically worthless for serious tuning. If someone wants to do their own shootout with calibrated gasses, etc., I know we'd be happy to supply units. I suspect that most other manufacturers would also agree. After all, I see the Zeitronix unit sold as a methanol injection failsafe and even though it came out in the middle of the pack in the shootout, it was reported as being out of Zeitronix's spec by a factor of 6 at the peak pressures tested.
In case it isn't clear - I'm saying that, properly used, all the instruments tested should have put up much more respectable numbers. Off the top of my head I can think of four mags that have put our precision to the test just in the last few months. In all those cases, our measurement principle came through but I cannot think of a single case were another controller with a new sensor was off by .15 AFR, let alone .6 in controlled testing!
Good Luck,
-jjf
Edit: I'd still like to find mag/issue for the shootout in question. I tried searching online, but when I google different combinations of wideband, AFR, shootout, I just end up with the ones we already link to on our site. I'm actually surprised. Normally if a publication runs a test and something is seemingly well out of spec the manufacturer will at least be contacted for comment and feedback on possible glaring mistakes in test procedures. I can recall a shootout of sorts early last year where a competitor's unit was way out of whack and it turned out to be a defective unit, which was replaced and retested. It isn't that tests are 'rigged', but mags depend on advertising revenue so they generally like to double check before calling something terrible.
Last edited by CharlesJ; Jan 2, 2007 at 01:12 PM.
Jan 1, 2007, 05:09 AM
#11
To be technically accurate, the resistor in a sensor does not degrade, but the sensor curve changes, particularly as the sensor ages (rapidly when exposed to things like lead).
The resistor itself is really only a rudimentary form of calibration. The 'curve' is established by large scale sampling and averaging of sensors by the manufacturer. The resistor is puts stoich (lambda 1.0) at a known point. In other words, the only thing that the resistor insures is that 14.7:1 with gasoline will be quite accurate.
Individual sensors can very quite a bit from the average curve. That is why a number of manufacturers sell 'calibrated' sensors for their precision controllers. This is also how the 'open' wideband that the Megasquirt guys have been experimenting with addresses the problem. Basically, you take calibrated gasses and build a table of 'corrections' for the variations of a given sensor. The problem with this is that it increases the cost of replacement sensors and precision will still degrade with time. Still, if a sensor is relatively new and in good shape, this approach can yield very good results.
As noted, we do not use the typical measurement principle. We have a patented measurement principle that allows stock sensors to be field calibrated for precision grade measurements. There are actually two calibrations. When a sensor is first installed you run a heater calibration. You normally do not have to run this calibration again until you either replace the sensor or the controller detects that the sensor has aged to the point where measurements are out of spec (it reports an error). The other calibration is a free air calibration. This corrects for measurement errors from atmospheric variation. Most manufacturers ignore this error source, since it is relatively small (and if they are relying solely on the stoich resistor, pressure variation is the least of their accuracy problems), though quite a few of the pro racing types have told me it is critical for them.
Regarding cost, I'm not sure that I follow you. For wideband only measurements we are about $80 cheaper - and there are other units that are cheaper still. On the flip side, the Zeitronix unit is $50-$80 cheaper than our LM-1 (though our LM-1 has a display and does stand alone logging). Frankly, I wouldn't buy any measurement tool solely on price. I'd start by defining my needs/wants and ranking them in priority. Different manufacturers have strengths in different areas, so picking the units that are a good fit for your priorities, then looking at who has a good bargain for your specific setup is a sound way to go.
Regarding the shootout, I'd go farther. If you believe the shootout in question - don't buy a wideband! Use an EGT gauge instead. The report shows all the widebands grossly out of spec, basically worthless for serious tuning. If someone wants to do their own shootout with calibrated gasses, etc., I know we'd be happy to supply units. I suspect that most other manufacturers would also agree. After all, I see the Zeitronix unit sold as a methanol injection failsafe and even though it came out in the middle of the pack in the shootout, it was reported as being out of Zeitronix's spec by a factor of 6 at the peak pressures tested.
In case it isn't clear - I'm saying that, properly used, all the instruments tested should have put up much more respectable numbers. Off the top of my head I can think of four mags that have put our precision to the test just in the last few months. In all those cases, our measurement principle came through but I cannot think of a single case were another controller with a new sensor was off by .15 AFR, let alone .6 in controlled testing!
Good Luck,
-jjf
Edit: I'd still like to find mag/issue for the shootout in question. I tried searching online, but when I google different combinations of wideband, AFR, shootout, I just end up with the ones we already link to on our site. I'm actually surprised. Normally if a publication runs a test and something is seemingly well out of spec the manufacturer will at least be contacted for comment and feedback on possible glaring mistakes in test procedures. I can recall a shootout of sorts early last year where a competitor's unit was way out of whack and it turned out to be a defective unit, which was replaced and retested. It isn't that tests are 'rigged', but mags depend on advertising revenue so they generally like to double check before calling something terrible.
The resistor itself is really only a rudimentary form of calibration. The 'curve' is established by large scale sampling and averaging of sensors by the manufacturer. The resistor is puts stoich (lambda 1.0) at a known point. In other words, the only thing that the resistor insures is that 14.7:1 with gasoline will be quite accurate.
Individual sensors can very quite a bit from the average curve. That is why a number of manufacturers sell 'calibrated' sensors for their precision controllers. This is also how the 'open' wideband that the Megasquirt guys have been experimenting with addresses the problem. Basically, you take calibrated gasses and build a table of 'corrections' for the variations of a given sensor. The problem with this is that it increases the cost of replacement sensors and precision will still degrade with time. Still, if a sensor is relatively new and in good shape, this approach can yield very good results.
As noted, we do not use the typical measurement principle. We have a patented measurement principle that allows stock sensors to be field calibrated for precision grade measurements. There are actually two calibrations. When a sensor is first installed you run a heater calibration. You normally do not have to run this calibration again until you either replace the sensor or the controller detects that the sensor has aged to the point where measurements are out of spec (it reports an error). The other calibration is a free air calibration. This corrects for measurement errors from atmospheric variation. Most manufacturers ignore this error source, since it is relatively small (and if they are relying solely on the stoich resistor, pressure variation is the least of their accuracy problems), though quite a few of the pro racing types have told me it is critical for them.
Regarding cost, I'm not sure that I follow you. For wideband only measurements we are about $80 cheaper - and there are other units that are cheaper still. On the flip side, the Zeitronix unit is $50-$80 cheaper than our LM-1 (though our LM-1 has a display and does stand alone logging). Frankly, I wouldn't buy any measurement tool solely on price. I'd start by defining my needs/wants and ranking them in priority. Different manufacturers have strengths in different areas, so picking the units that are a good fit for your priorities, then looking at who has a good bargain for your specific setup is a sound way to go.
Regarding the shootout, I'd go farther. If you believe the shootout in question - don't buy a wideband! Use an EGT gauge instead. The report shows all the widebands grossly out of spec, basically worthless for serious tuning. If someone wants to do their own shootout with calibrated gasses, etc., I know we'd be happy to supply units. I suspect that most other manufacturers would also agree. After all, I see the Zeitronix unit sold as a methanol injection failsafe and even though it came out in the middle of the pack in the shootout, it was reported as being out of Zeitronix's spec by a factor of 6 at the peak pressures tested.
In case it isn't clear - I'm saying that, properly used, all the instruments tested should have put up much more respectable numbers. Off the top of my head I can think of four mags that have put our precision to the test just in the last few months. In all those cases, our measurement principle came through but I cannot think of a single case were another controller with a new sensor was off by .15 AFR, let alone .6 in controlled testing!
Good Luck,
-jjf
Edit: I'd still like to find mag/issue for the shootout in question. I tried searching online, but when I google different combinations of wideband, AFR, shootout, I just end up with the ones we already link to on our site. I'm actually surprised. Normally if a publication runs a test and something is seemingly well out of spec the manufacturer will at least be contacted for comment and feedback on possible glaring mistakes in test procedures. I can recall a shootout of sorts early last year where a competitor's unit was way out of whack and it turned out to be a defective unit, which was replaced and retested. It isn't that tests are 'rigged', but mags depend on advertising revenue so they generally like to double check before calling something terrible.
Jan 1, 2007, 09:33 AM
#13
Zeitronix DID in fact test second to the $1200 MOTEC wideband, ahead of the innovate wideband in accuracy.
We have run 10.92 @ 129.94mph, a record MPH for a stock turbo equipped Evo using ZEITRONIX precision accuracy and measurements not only for AFR, but also 3.5bar MAP (boost), high speed, low mass EGT with ZAVT-1 audio-visual alarm and safeguard that was a CRITICAL part of insuring the health of the motor not only during those back to back 10.9 passes, but also everyday of the week as a daily driver. Second to that it was of the utmost importance when it came to actually tuning the car to that performance level.
It has not only proven exceptional at pump gas and racefuel tuning, but has proven to be just as proficient at tuning radical fuels such as methanol, pump and oxygenated mixes/injection setups.
It is such a critical component of safety that all injection systems installed locally by us, we are requiring the responsibility of using the ZEITRONIX wideband package so a user not only understands the health of their injection system and vehicle's engine status, but that if something goes ary including user error, that the necessary failsafes are in place until they have the ability to refill their meth tank or address the circumstance.
We have run 10.92 @ 129.94mph, a record MPH for a stock turbo equipped Evo using ZEITRONIX precision accuracy and measurements not only for AFR, but also 3.5bar MAP (boost), high speed, low mass EGT with ZAVT-1 audio-visual alarm and safeguard that was a CRITICAL part of insuring the health of the motor not only during those back to back 10.9 passes, but also everyday of the week as a daily driver. Second to that it was of the utmost importance when it came to actually tuning the car to that performance level.
It has not only proven exceptional at pump gas and racefuel tuning, but has proven to be just as proficient at tuning radical fuels such as methanol, pump and oxygenated mixes/injection setups.
It is such a critical component of safety that all injection systems installed locally by us, we are requiring the responsibility of using the ZEITRONIX wideband package so a user not only understands the health of their injection system and vehicle's engine status, but that if something goes ary including user error, that the necessary failsafes are in place until they have the ability to refill their meth tank or address the circumstance.
Jan 1, 2007, 09:55 AM
#15
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Good point. A lot of people don't understand this. Widebands are strictly for tuning. Always having it installed in your car will cause for them to become inaccurate overtime no matter how good it is, even if they are self calibrating etc...