Tuners "Scrambling" their maps.
Jan 19, 2007, 09:50 AM
#31
Sounds to me like the one thing everybody agrees on is that if a vendor/tuner intends to lock/scramble the ECU, they need to let the customer know *before* the purchase is made. Once you accept that, we can all vote with our wallet which way of doing business we prefer. Nothing is as sincere as cold hard cash 
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Jan 19, 2007, 10:20 AM
#32
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being an automotive technician and a DIY'er, I really am aware of both sides of the argument on this. I dont think trying to lock your software is needed, but I can see where it is basically a last resort for some. Essentially, there are 3 types of customers out there, and the differences are what causes the problems.
Customer #1- the "dont know, dont care, dont want to" For whatever reason, this customer is much happier paying someone what they ask to perform a task, so the customer doesnt have to do it themselves. They take the time to find someone with a good reputation, and who does good work, and gladly pays them to do the work right, the first time. This customer is what keeps professionals in buisness.
Customer #2- the well-skilled DIY'er who can do most things himself, knows his own limits, and will pay money for high quality parts when necessary, and save money when needed. This is actually a really good customer as well, in the fact that they wont hassle a professional all the time, but will ask for certain help at times. These are the guys that I dont mind taking 15-20 minutes with to talk about problems, give advice on solutions, and even look up information (that I am paying for) to give them a hand.
Customer #3 is where the whole negative aspect of sales comes from. Most of these guys dont appreciate the time it takes to develop a high level of technique (whether its tuning, labor, product quality, whatever) and therefore cry about prices all the time. MJ, dynoflash, and many others out there have taken a lot of time to get to their level of understanding and ability, and really are NOT asking much of people to provide their services. Because of #3's, lots of copy cat companies pop up trying to make a quick buck off of others hard work, even though their products are usually very inferior. Even worse, the copycats know so little they dont know they're making junk, just that it looks close. This is why many tuners get frustrated, and try to stop it.
All Ive ever learned in this business is to do the best work you can, and stay honest and true. If you are as good as you think you are, people will come to you and ask for your help, and pay you for it.
Customer #1- the "dont know, dont care, dont want to" For whatever reason, this customer is much happier paying someone what they ask to perform a task, so the customer doesnt have to do it themselves. They take the time to find someone with a good reputation, and who does good work, and gladly pays them to do the work right, the first time. This customer is what keeps professionals in buisness.
Customer #2- the well-skilled DIY'er who can do most things himself, knows his own limits, and will pay money for high quality parts when necessary, and save money when needed. This is actually a really good customer as well, in the fact that they wont hassle a professional all the time, but will ask for certain help at times. These are the guys that I dont mind taking 15-20 minutes with to talk about problems, give advice on solutions, and even look up information (that I am paying for) to give them a hand.
Customer #3 is where the whole negative aspect of sales comes from. Most of these guys dont appreciate the time it takes to develop a high level of technique (whether its tuning, labor, product quality, whatever) and therefore cry about prices all the time. MJ, dynoflash, and many others out there have taken a lot of time to get to their level of understanding and ability, and really are NOT asking much of people to provide their services. Because of #3's, lots of copy cat companies pop up trying to make a quick buck off of others hard work, even though their products are usually very inferior. Even worse, the copycats know so little they dont know they're making junk, just that it looks close. This is why many tuners get frustrated, and try to stop it.
All Ive ever learned in this business is to do the best work you can, and stay honest and true. If you are as good as you think you are, people will come to you and ask for your help, and pay you for it.
Last edited by Jazzie604; Jan 19, 2007 at 10:24 AM.
Jan 19, 2007, 11:22 AM
#33
I'm sure you could find out about what I do on the internet but there's a diference if you ask me a question about how to do this or that I'll give you the correct answer and won't charge you for it.
Jan 19, 2007, 06:04 PM
#34
Hi
I read a sugestion that a tuner could flash an unsed section of the ROM with some data, thus giving it a signiture. Each code could be different for each car , or batch of cars. This might be a better idea than locking an ECU, as the lock is fairly easy to bypass. Of course it dosen't help stop the flash being re-used but it might help identify the source car. The code could be over writen, but hiding a sig might prove harder to detect than unscrambling a map.
MB
I read a sugestion that a tuner could flash an unsed section of the ROM with some data, thus giving it a signiture. Each code could be different for each car , or batch of cars. This might be a better idea than locking an ECU, as the lock is fairly easy to bypass. Of course it dosen't help stop the flash being re-used but it might help identify the source car. The code could be over writen, but hiding a sig might prove harder to detect than unscrambling a map.
MB
I was actually gauging interest on whether or not tuners would want a tool like that, but there's no reason they couldn't do it themselves with a simple hex editor.
Jan 19, 2007, 08:07 PM
#35
^^ this would stop the very basic people. I'd simply do a diff between the before and after map. Find out what change was made in the area of the ROM that didn't need to be touched (i.e off in some random part of the map that doesn't contain any important tables)...and I'm back in bussiness .
If their determined enough there is nothing much you can do with the ROM to stop people from going off and sharing it.
.If their determined enough there is nothing much you can do with the ROM to stop people from going off and sharing it.
Jan 20, 2007, 03:05 AM
#36
^^ this would stop the very basic people. I'd simply do a diff between the before and after map. Find out what change was made in the area of the ROM that didn't need to be touched (i.e off in some random part of the map that doesn't contain any important tables)...and I'm back in bussiness .
If their determined enough there is nothing much you can do with the ROM to stop people from going off and sharing it.
.If their determined enough there is nothing much you can do with the ROM to stop people from going off and sharing it.
Jan 20, 2007, 06:26 AM
#37
^^ this would stop the very basic people. I'd simply do a diff between the before and after map. Find out what change was made in the area of the ROM that didn't need to be touched (i.e off in some random part of the map that doesn't contain any important tables)...and I'm back in bussiness .
If their determined enough there is nothing much you can do with the ROM to stop people from going off and sharing it.
.If their determined enough there is nothing much you can do with the ROM to stop people from going off and sharing it.
Heck, there are guys trying to make money on selling "unscrambling service" of a scrambled map, what is funny is I probably was the one who showed them how to do it back when it was first discovered.
The reality is there's big business in one size fits all, look at SPT, Hypertec, Diablo, etc.. All of these "chip" or "reflash unit" for domestic and some imports have been around for years, selling generic upgrades. And they generally work because their not aggressive enough to do damage.
Turbocharged cars are different, there's less margin for error, but the Evo is a weird animal, its very tolerant to error, so even a not-so-great tune can sometimes go un-noticed. But the reality is, its pretty easy to do your own base maps by using a little common sense, as unless you have some really unusual parts, or a really funky intake, its pretty easy to add fuel in a few strategic areas, and add timing through the map in a few areas, and lean out the map in other areas. Its really not rocket science, but I do think that if your unfamiliar with it, that its best left to someone who's done it before.
A base tune really is of very little value, its there because a market exists, people will always be reluctant to do it themselves.
There are also 3 types of base flash people (as stated earlier, but I will actually go in a slightly different direction)
1) The person who has no interest in doing it themselves, and will pay for a Base map, and/or even a custom tune.
2) The person who feels more comfortable starting with something done by a pro, generally they prefer custom tunes to start with for their specific car
3) The person who never pays for anything, lowballs parts online, and always tries to get something for nothing. These guys will never be customers, and will just throw any map on their car for free. These are the same types who get everything for free, software, music, flashes, etc. Its unlikely these guys will ever be customers and its something that companies put into their statistics as a lost sale, well, they were never a lost sale as they never had any intention of being a customer.. You start seeing more of these types as the cars get less expensive and more of the "Ebay" generation start working on the cars.
Jan 20, 2007, 12:16 PM
#38
It would stop many people who arent familiar with programming and those tools, but your right, it wouldnt really stop someone who's determined. Neither will any form of protection.
Heck, there are guys trying to make money on selling "unscrambling service" of a scrambled map, what is funny is I probably was the one who showed them how to do it back when it was first discovered.
The reality is there's big business in one size fits all, look at SPT, Hypertec, Diablo, etc.. All of these "chip" or "reflash unit" for domestic and some imports have been around for years, selling generic upgrades. And they generally work because their not aggressive enough to do damage.
Turbocharged cars are different, there's less margin for error, but the Evo is a weird animal, its very tolerant to error, so even a not-so-great tune can sometimes go un-noticed. But the reality is, its pretty easy to do your own base maps by using a little common sense, as unless you have some really unusual parts, or a really funky intake, its pretty easy to add fuel in a few strategic areas, and add timing through the map in a few areas, and lean out the map in other areas. Its really not rocket science, but I do think that if your unfamiliar with it, that its best left to someone who's done it before.
A base tune really is of very little value, its there because a market exists, people will always be reluctant to do it themselves.
There are also 3 types of base flash people (as stated earlier, but I will actually go in a slightly different direction)
1) The person who has no interest in doing it themselves, and will pay for a Base map, and/or even a custom tune.
2) The person who feels more comfortable starting with something done by a pro, generally they prefer custom tunes to start with for their specific car
3) The person who never pays for anything, lowballs parts online, and always tries to get something for nothing. These guys will never be customers, and will just throw any map on their car for free. These are the same types who get everything for free, software, music, flashes, etc. Its unlikely these guys will ever be customers and its something that companies put into their statistics as a lost sale, well, they were never a lost sale as they never had any intention of being a customer.. You start seeing more of these types as the cars get less expensive and more of the "Ebay" generation start working on the cars.
Heck, there are guys trying to make money on selling "unscrambling service" of a scrambled map, what is funny is I probably was the one who showed them how to do it back when it was first discovered.
The reality is there's big business in one size fits all, look at SPT, Hypertec, Diablo, etc.. All of these "chip" or "reflash unit" for domestic and some imports have been around for years, selling generic upgrades. And they generally work because their not aggressive enough to do damage.
Turbocharged cars are different, there's less margin for error, but the Evo is a weird animal, its very tolerant to error, so even a not-so-great tune can sometimes go un-noticed. But the reality is, its pretty easy to do your own base maps by using a little common sense, as unless you have some really unusual parts, or a really funky intake, its pretty easy to add fuel in a few strategic areas, and add timing through the map in a few areas, and lean out the map in other areas. Its really not rocket science, but I do think that if your unfamiliar with it, that its best left to someone who's done it before.
A base tune really is of very little value, its there because a market exists, people will always be reluctant to do it themselves.
There are also 3 types of base flash people (as stated earlier, but I will actually go in a slightly different direction)
1) The person who has no interest in doing it themselves, and will pay for a Base map, and/or even a custom tune.
2) The person who feels more comfortable starting with something done by a pro, generally they prefer custom tunes to start with for their specific car
3) The person who never pays for anything, lowballs parts online, and always tries to get something for nothing. These guys will never be customers, and will just throw any map on their car for free. These are the same types who get everything for free, software, music, flashes, etc. Its unlikely these guys will ever be customers and its something that companies put into their statistics as a lost sale, well, they were never a lost sale as they never had any intention of being a customer.. You start seeing more of these types as the cars get less expensive and more of the "Ebay" generation start working on the cars.
As we have discussed in here previously instead of wasting time with trying to stop the maps being shared the better bet is just to work on customer service and other areas to keep #1 and #2 coming to you
.For the record I am #2...I want to get pointed in the right direction and then fiddle with it from there myself
.
Jan 20, 2007, 01:15 PM
#39
Yeah I kinda guessed that was the ultimate point. In reality its not much of an argument as its a no-win situation regardless. I am more curious about the overall opinions than a real debate though, as it gives some insight into the types of people who feel one way or the other.
Feb 12, 2007, 08:49 AM
#40
i was trying to retune my car because I have a few new mods. Little did I know that my ECU was locked, I was so pissed off. So me and a buddy logged the car and there is knock everywhere now and we can't touch it to fix that problem. I was tuned by Al from Dynoflash, I will never ever let him touch my car again for that reason and the Sh*** customer service one gets from him.
Feb 12, 2007, 08:56 AM
#41
i was trying to retune my car because I have a few new mods. Little did I know that my ECU was locked, I was so pissed off. So me and a buddy logged the car and there is knock everywhere now and we can't touch it to fix that problem. I was tuned by Al from Dynoflash, I will never ever let him touch my car again for that reason and the Sh*** customer service one gets from him.
al is the best tuner ever, hopefully he'll do a good job the 2nd time around.
Last edited by 4WS Tuning; Feb 15, 2007 at 10:20 PM.
Feb 12, 2007, 11:42 AM
#43
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i was trying to retune my car because I have a few new mods. Little did I know that my ECU was locked, I was so pissed off. So me and a buddy logged the car and there is knock everywhere now and we can't touch it to fix that problem. I was tuned by Al from Dynoflash, I will never ever let him touch my car again for that reason and the Sh*** customer service one gets from him.
I simply asked him - (your friend the claimed 'tuner') to put the customer (you) who purchased the tune on the phone to verify that an actual customer was seeking assitance and not some 3rd party 'tuner'
Your friend stated that he was trying to adjust my map for the addition of a lower fmic pipe
He refused to put you on the phoneto verify
I am sorry but I only extend customer service to customers
He did not tell me about any knock counts, etc which may or may not be related to additional mods you have added
Just so you know - I am more than willing to help you as far as tech support and adjustment of your map and other customer service - provided that YOU call during normal business hours
Also - as I suggested in another thread, I am comming to South Florida in a few weeks and would be happy to look over your car free of charge
Thanks
Al
Last edited by DynoFlash; Feb 12, 2007 at 11:48 AM.
Feb 12, 2007, 11:53 AM
#44
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+1 that is sucks. A friend of mine had a tune done and wanted to look at it... maybe make some fine adjustments here and there. Needless to say he couldn't do squat. Now that I know there is a way around it I'll have to help him unlock it
Feb 12, 2007, 12:31 PM
#45
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They typically get srambled by putting the incorrect ECU ID into the flash. When you attempt to read it with ECUFlash, it picks up the incorrect ID and loads the wrong definition for the car. When you load the wrong definition file, the maps will appear scrambled.
A better solution for the vendors would be to find a clear block of ROM where they can write a copyright signature. That's what we do at my new job.
A better solution for the vendors would be to find a clear block of ROM where they can write a copyright signature. That's what we do at my new job.