TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

To reiterate...

Speedlimit

One of your post was removed. You are entitled to express your dissatisfaction, but not personal insults. Thanks.

Speedlimit...

dubbleugly01

iTrader: (24)

nevermind.....

kapolani

iTrader: (6)

Glass houses, man.... Glass houses...

EFIxMR

iTrader: (10)

Yes, I offered to unscramble maps for $50.

Bottom line is that it takes time to unscramble it. And it is something I figured out on my own.

One of my customers said he couldn't see his map at all from a mail in reflash that he bought from someone else, and with another map he bought from email it was all scrambled.

I am no computer programmer by any means, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what was going on.

A simple hexeditor program that can compare files showed me what I needed to in order to unscramble the map, which I did for him for free.

After finding out what I had to do... and figuring it out on my own... I figured my time to do the same for someone was worth something, considering tuning cars is my job and not my hobby.

V8HAHA

iTrader: (5)

I had the same problem with my dynoflash and had al return my ecu back to stock so I could tune it using ecuflash. Al gave me some smart azz comment that I was a amature in tuning and their was no problem with my ecu but yet I couldnt even access it until hed reset it back to stock and to top that he claimed he would email me the flash I purchased from him and bever did so I paid $150 for nothing. No money refund nor do I have the original flash. Im not knocking Al as a tuner because he has proven time and time again his cars are fats but from a business man he could use some real work. If you read this AL im still waiting for my flash I purchased from you if not i would take a refund because I got no tech support from you about the problem just alot of run around.

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

Just by way of clarification, every story has two sides - when you came by to Tuscon without an appointment when I was there a few months ago you asked me to return your car to stock which I did so you could "learn to tune it yourself." I took the time to remove your map and put in a stock one free of charge. At the time you did not ask for the map that was in your car or ask for a refund.


Thereafter, from what I have heard after your attempts of self tuning were not successful, you had MYNES performance do a full custom tune on your car which cost $700.

On the occassion of my last trip to Tuscon, that same day you tried to down load your tuned MYNES map into a fellow IX evo owners' car which had just been purchased and in the process his car was disabled and unable to start as you neglected to first remove his imoblizer code. (I note that your evo is highly modified while thye new owner's car was 100% stock so that MYNES map may not have worked well - which is besides the point as shortly thereafter my cell phone was filled with frantic messages from the guy whoes car would not start).

This is a great example of some of the "issues" with the business of tuning and the "open ecu" technology. At times they co-exist in a difficult relationship.

It is a pity that the new Evo IX guy just did not come over and see me for a base flash and short test drive I was selling for $100 across town. Instead he got an exensive lesson in trial and error.

If everyone in the Evo world decided to just share tuning maps with each other I guess there would be no future in the business of tuning evos.


I am happy to forward you your original map - pm me your full name - address and revelant data along with email and I will send it to you - (along with a license agreement to restrict you from transfering my maps to 3rd parties as you tried to do with the MYNES map).

Al

cij911

iTrader: (14)

Point Al.....That may have been game, set, and match...

Speedlimit

Final warning to those whose argumentative skills include personal insults and name calling. Your are doing yourself and fellow members a disservice by destroying your own credibility. Please keep your discussions civil and on point. If you can't, you will not be allowed to post. Thanks.

Speedlimit...

cpoevo

iTrader: (1)

The problem with tuners scrambling the ECU is if I need another tune. I am not bashing any tuner here just using him as an example because he travels with his tunes. Tuner X comes to SoCal every once in a while, but if I add more mods and need another tune I have to wait for him to come again until I can get retuned. By scrambling the ECU the tuner has taken away the right of the customer to go to another tuner.

On another note the customer should have the right to view his ROM and modify if he wants. I think the tune belongs to the customer. Everyone has used anologies ie ObGyn. Well the flash program does not belong to the tuner. It is copyrighted by the company that wrote the flash program. So I will use an analogy that involves software and computers because that is what we are dealing with here. I use MicroSoft Excel and write a spread sheet for a tuner to keep track of the cars he has tuned and results of the tune, mods, time taken, etc. I do not own the program used to make the spread sheet. Now I can charge for my time, but I cannot tell him he cant change the spreadsheet. That just isnt right. Should I lock his pc so he cant see anything other than the spread sheet and the formulas are hidden? No it just isnt right. The customer owns the ECU and paid for the labor and the expertise of the tuner.

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

I can't speak for other tuners but for myself . . . .

I have changed the init code and also changed the rom ID code on occassion with my tunes

Both actions can be easily reversed as described in this thread

Any customer who has a problem - I will take care of them free of charge

Also, customers who say they want to "self tune" are welcome to request a unlocked rom to make it easier and also they can be given free lessons iof they are being custom tuned on how to tune and what to look for etc.

Again to reiterate, the steps I took were in response to the constant erasing of flashes by dealers due to the various 0300 code flash update TSB's notices which resulted in a lot of fed ex charges I paid for shipping ecus back to have flashes re-installed.

Until you have had 1 or 2 guys calling you a week saying "I just took my car in for an oil change and it feels slow" you wont fully appreciate the reasoning.

We should all thank malabu jack for creating the unlocker - becuase without that tool to throw the FOFO code at the ecu it never would have been posisble to lock ecus in the first place

There is no mystery about what has been done and it is clearly set forth in this thread you need the active matrix unlocker and a simple hex editor.

Agsin, I provide this service to customers free of charge.

Please PM me for services as I usually do not frequent these forums.

Thanks

V8HAHA

iTrader: (5)

Lets get the story straight for one I have self tuned since Ive had my ecuflash. and yes I got a full custome tune from Mynes on a dyno with cable and 2 maps street and race gas for $700 bucks thats a steal being some tuners just tune you on the road for one map, no cable and charge $400. And yes I scrambled a friends code while at the track trying to datalog and do tuning just trying to set up a 2 step for him that I had on my stock map not a Mynes map that my car runs on I have a fuel pump 02 and full exhaust why would I load that to a stock car. It was a rookie mistake I admit im sure you have made some in your day but none of what you said has anything to do with my money or my map that I purchased from you know does it. If you you not going to refund me just say so and ill leave at that your the guy that has to run a business and answer for all the F%$ked stuff you do not me.

And for the record Al is a great tuner I dont want any newbie read this and get the wrong idea. His cars make power and he knows his stuff. I cant knock that part of his business but as I stated custumer service can use some work. Dont let this discourage any one from dealing with him/dynoflash. I would recomend him any day of the week

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Although you make a good point, the Excel does make provisions for locking/hiding/obfuscating data. I understand the point, and that is the data in the spreadsheet is the owner of the program's, but the Macros, formulas and programming (because excel is capable of it..) are the property of the programmer and it sometimes is locked. The reason this is a poor analogy is the programmer in the case of maps are not the tuner, but mitsubishi. In the excel analogy this would be along the lines of someone buying excel and the proprietary spreadsheet, hiring a consultant to enter data and graph it using the proprietary spreadsheet. The data he enters is specific to you, applies to you, and should be able to be further altered by you after he is no longer under contract. On the other hand, the proprietary programmed spreadsheet is something he did not provide. If he modified it to suit your needs, then the modifications would be under his contract, but its a derivative work based on someone elses copyrighted. Therefore he has no legal claim to it as a whole. He can however extract the modified portion of code (not DATA) and copyright it as an excerpt from a derivative work. But the resulting work is not his unless its substantially altered from the original but its still a derivative. There are laws that do cover disassembly of copyrighted machine code, in some cases it would infringe on the intellectual property of the original author. In some cases there are provisions in that licensing that allow distribution and enhancement, but not reverse engineering. The ECU's Rom, does not have any such licensing documented limiting the end-users rights. However it is the intellectual property of Mitsubishi. This would make it difficult for a tuner, or even an ECU Rom Modder, to have a legal claim to any derivative work created from the Rom.. This would apply to both the data and the programming. Unless the programming is 100% original or deemed substantially unique (and the original copyright doesn't restrict or limit its use as part of a derivative work) But again, the data does not consitute a derivative work as it doesn't alter the function of the ECU, just its operating parameters.

You guys see how complicated and convoluted this gets??

Ultimately, there is no legal basis for anyone to claim damages for anything that alters the ECU, the End-User has allowed modification to his own ECU, which limits the tuners liability, the Tuner cannot claim damages for a map thats shared either. But a "pirate" cannot claim he used a tuners tune and blew up his car as it was not for his car in the first place. Mitsubishi does have the right to claim damages, they do it by voiding warranties, etc..

Knowing that the dealership frequently reflashes ECU's as part of TSB or Recall procedure when cars are brought in for service, its perfectly acceptable for you guys to lock the ECU, as this is the only known method that will protect you from having your rom reflashed without your knowledge, a better method is to back up your ROM before having the car serviced, but thats another story.

Obfuscation methods are trivial, I posted a graphic a few posts back on a nice easy way to be able to change the rom's internal ID, this can be used by both tuners and end-users so they can be obfuscated or restored.. This completely trivializes the method and makes it useless as a protection method (which it should never have been in the first place) It can still be used, but at least it can also be easily changed back.

The sticky points of this whole thing are when you start modding the ECU's functionality. The modification "Patches" can be copyrighted, but it would be difficult to enforce. There are companies out there which will sell flash tuner handheld units, which will have functionality patches, and encrypted patch data, and tune data, these portions are seperate from the resulting tune and are their property. However now that an entire rom can be extracted, as a derivative work, I'm not sure what legal grounds they will have ultimately anyway. As far as I can tell, it would be very hard for them to defend. But in their case, they have a physical product which is where their interest is at stake.

What does this really mean for everyone? Well, partly its a freeforall, there isn't alot either side can do to recover any sort of damages. Mitsubishi ultimately owns the code that is being worked with. This all really falls under how your contract with your tuner is worded, and how much courtesy is extended to both parties.



The moral of the story is to get everything in writing, ask questions, and if you do not agree with the terms, do not commit to any sort of contract. I don't think any tuner has a problem with you examining your own tune, and backing it up. Most even encourage it. Their problem is people giving away the tune for your car, to others. An expensive custom flash is all but useless on another car. But base flashes are similar on many cars, and are of limited value as their likely substantially the same map used on many cars. But you have to assume any map sent to you for your own use, is for your own car, and not for redistribution.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Tuners could put a clause in their contracts stating that if someone copies their tune onto another car, that it makes the person who copied the tune, entirely responsible for damages made to the car the tune was copied to. This little bit of carefully written legalese could do more to discourage copying tunes since it places the responsibility for damage and recourse on the person distributing it. (Of course any tuner wanting to go this route should have a lawyer figure out what terminology would be most binding) I realize this contradicts what I might have said earlier. However its unlikely someone sharing a map would enter into a contract with someone else limiting their own liability for damages.

C6C6CH3vo

iTrader: (9)

With due respect I disagree. First of all, the maps themselves provide no real value to any other car but the car that it was tuned for, no matter how fine tuned it is - just insight on specific applications for mods. Wouldn't providing the consumer with this info actually benefit the tuning industry and most importantly enhance development?