Tuners "Scrambling" their maps.
Jan 17, 2007, 08:06 AM
#1
Tuners "Scrambling" their maps.
I have started to get reports about several tuners beginning to both Lock their ECU's and scramble their maps..
I was just curious about everyones opinions on the subject.
Just so you know ECU Locking really isn't to prevent you guys from reading your maps (as its easily read with the Unlocker tool running) its to prevent Mitsubishi's service department from overwriting your expensive tuned ECU's.. So keep that in mind.
First I wanted to point out that "Scrambling" of maps is not really what is happening, the tuners have elected to alter the ECUID to something either not available as a definition, or as an incorrect definition.
I am very sympathetic to the reason WHY its being done, but I find that this practice CAN POTENTIALLY BE DANGEROUS, and would encourage tuners NOT to do this..
1) Using an improper ECUID can potentially result in someone in the future retuning the car, or working on his own car, to DO MORE HARM as he could potentially alter improper areas of his ECU. This would be DIRECTLY the fault of the tuner as he was the one who obscured the map
2) This will not discourage anything, as this obfuscation method is easily defeated, and the ECU is the users personal property and this really would amount to vandalism.
I would encourage all users pull a copy of their stock map and set it aside before having a car tuned. This way, in the future if your maps are obscured, you can look up your rom's ECUID. Some tuners are using roms from different ECU's and not starting with your own, so also be cautious of that. Although this practice is pretty legit, as its sometimes easier to start with a clean slate, than it is to undo another tuners work. This is also another reason why you'd want a backup of your original. Your tuner should at least be able to supply you with your stock rom as a backup.
Now, my personal opinions on the subject aren't really important, as I'm sympathetic to both sides of the argument.
However, there will be a time that I would be dyno tuning cars, I'm not interested in doing through the e-mail reflash stuff, but custom tunes, but the one things I would not ever do is lock an ECU (unless I was asked to) or obscure a rom to prevent it from being read. Additionally, I'm not secretive about tuning, as its more about technique and problem solving, and very little to do with what the numbers on the screen are. So for me tuning is an interaction with the customer, and explaining what it is I'm actually doing.
I understand that tuning a car is something people want you to do because they respect your work and skill, so I have no problem sharing information and explaining what it is I'm doing, and why I'm doing it. I'd like to see people retune their own cars later, but I know that the best way to get recurring business is to have good service.
Anyway.. I just wanted to post this as most of the tuners seem to feel the same way that I do, but a few see all of this being out in the open as some sort of threat to their business. Custom tunes are custom tunes, you either do a good job or you don't. I don't think the ability to review a rom is going to make any difference.
I was just curious about everyones opinions on the subject.
Just so you know ECU Locking really isn't to prevent you guys from reading your maps (as its easily read with the Unlocker tool running) its to prevent Mitsubishi's service department from overwriting your expensive tuned ECU's.. So keep that in mind.
First I wanted to point out that "Scrambling" of maps is not really what is happening, the tuners have elected to alter the ECUID to something either not available as a definition, or as an incorrect definition.
I am very sympathetic to the reason WHY its being done, but I find that this practice CAN POTENTIALLY BE DANGEROUS, and would encourage tuners NOT to do this..
1) Using an improper ECUID can potentially result in someone in the future retuning the car, or working on his own car, to DO MORE HARM as he could potentially alter improper areas of his ECU. This would be DIRECTLY the fault of the tuner as he was the one who obscured the map
2) This will not discourage anything, as this obfuscation method is easily defeated, and the ECU is the users personal property and this really would amount to vandalism.
I would encourage all users pull a copy of their stock map and set it aside before having a car tuned. This way, in the future if your maps are obscured, you can look up your rom's ECUID. Some tuners are using roms from different ECU's and not starting with your own, so also be cautious of that. Although this practice is pretty legit, as its sometimes easier to start with a clean slate, than it is to undo another tuners work. This is also another reason why you'd want a backup of your original. Your tuner should at least be able to supply you with your stock rom as a backup.
Now, my personal opinions on the subject aren't really important, as I'm sympathetic to both sides of the argument.
However, there will be a time that I would be dyno tuning cars, I'm not interested in doing through the e-mail reflash stuff, but custom tunes, but the one things I would not ever do is lock an ECU (unless I was asked to) or obscure a rom to prevent it from being read. Additionally, I'm not secretive about tuning, as its more about technique and problem solving, and very little to do with what the numbers on the screen are. So for me tuning is an interaction with the customer, and explaining what it is I'm actually doing.
I understand that tuning a car is something people want you to do because they respect your work and skill, so I have no problem sharing information and explaining what it is I'm doing, and why I'm doing it. I'd like to see people retune their own cars later, but I know that the best way to get recurring business is to have good service.
Anyway.. I just wanted to post this as most of the tuners seem to feel the same way that I do, but a few see all of this being out in the open as some sort of threat to their business. Custom tunes are custom tunes, you either do a good job or you don't. I don't think the ability to review a rom is going to make any difference.
Jan 17, 2007, 08:13 AM
#2
I agree. If peeps are custom tuning, they are doing it the same way that we are, and have the same tools that have been less than closed source and very unsecretive (unless they bought tech-tom).
To take tools that are a contribution of the community and lock up the product is legal, but is ungrateful at the same time.
To take tools that are a contribution of the community and lock up the product is legal, but is ungrateful at the same time.
Jan 17, 2007, 08:17 AM
#3
Jan 17, 2007, 08:19 AM
#4
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I agree with this 100%. I may pay tuner "X" to do the tune on my car, but he only comes out west once a year, and in the interim, I have decided to pay tuner "Y" to re-tune the car with new mods, and may plan on going back to tuner "X" later in the year, as I ended up liking his tune better. I would be pissed if tuner "Y" had somehow messed up the ecu or changed it around to allow tuner "X" to not tune the car, or somehow screw up the ecu.
Once again, you hit the nail right on the head.
Once again, you hit the nail right on the head.
Jan 17, 2007, 08:21 AM
#5
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I have no problem with tuners scrambling their tunes. It is their work product and for most of them represents 1000s of hours of research and tuning. This is how they make their living. We all know how quickly pirated tunes would move around the world. Look how quickly a certain pirated software has spread throughout the EVO community.
Last edited by robertrinaustin; Jan 17, 2007 at 08:56 AM.
Jan 17, 2007, 08:32 AM
#6
Two Ecutek tuners have mentioned that their new software (which I thought did live mapping, but it sounds like all it does it show you what load zone you're in)has a new type of lock on it that ECUflash won't be able to read with the ECU unlocker. Anyone come across this?
Jan 17, 2007, 08:55 AM
#7
Unless it alters the boot loader (which is not part of the current reflash kernel) I don't think it works. But I haven't come across it though.
BTW, if ECUTek uses any proprietary custom ECU code, such as live tuning and other things, I'm okay with their desire to protect that. If their intent is just to lock a person into using only one product to tune their cars, then I would have a huge problem with it.
As long as the ECU uses an Init code, unlocking the ECU won't be all that difficult even if they changed the recovery kernel. I am under the impression that the recovery code is not able to be overwritten or altered. But I have not invested the time to try to figure out every aspect of the internal workings of the hardware. Subaru ECU's work differently as the reflashing kernel is part of the flash, so if its altered or damaged, you would basically have an unrecoverable ECU (using standard methods)
BTW, if ECUTek uses any proprietary custom ECU code, such as live tuning and other things, I'm okay with their desire to protect that. If their intent is just to lock a person into using only one product to tune their cars, then I would have a huge problem with it.
As long as the ECU uses an Init code, unlocking the ECU won't be all that difficult even if they changed the recovery kernel. I am under the impression that the recovery code is not able to be overwritten or altered. But I have not invested the time to try to figure out every aspect of the internal workings of the hardware. Subaru ECU's work differently as the reflashing kernel is part of the flash, so if its altered or damaged, you would basically have an unrecoverable ECU (using standard methods)
Last edited by MalibuJack; Jan 17, 2007 at 09:14 AM.
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Jan 17, 2007, 07:04 PM
#8
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If a tuner gets paid for the tune that should be the end of their claim. The tune in its self should be proprietary to the vehicle in question. A person that would take any tune form a car with similar features and use it on their car as is would be prone to due this with any tune they can get their hands on. Good tuners will always be safe due to the quality of their work. In my opinion the only thing that is reasonable to protect is the tool used. Also I don't think there is anything wrong with using existing examples to learn how to tune a vehicle.
JK
Jan 17, 2007, 09:57 PM
#12
I like the idea of mitsu service techs not being able to mess up my ECU maps, but then again it's standard practice for me (since ECUFlash became available) to back up my ECU before I give my car to anybody. Unfortunately, ECUFlash wasn't around when I got my original WORKS tune and my requests for getting a copy of my stock map have fallen of deaf ears so far. I suppose a vendor could offer this as an option, but doing it without the knowledge and consent of the owner is a serious thorn in my hide.
I really hate the idea of a vendor trying to restrict my access to my own property. People are protective of their cam designs too, but that doesn't cause them to put locks on the valve-cover or make you sign a EULA when installing cams. It only happens with software, because for some reason customers let vendors get away with it. From my point of view, a tune is a service (not a product) and there's no claim of a tuner to anything in/on/part of my car after I handed over the cash.
So bottom line - I'd rather "defend" my ECU for myself and retain control over my own property.
I really hate the idea of a vendor trying to restrict my access to my own property. People are protective of their cam designs too, but that doesn't cause them to put locks on the valve-cover or make you sign a EULA when installing cams. It only happens with software, because for some reason customers let vendors get away with it. From my point of view, a tune is a service (not a product) and there's no claim of a tuner to anything in/on/part of my car after I handed over the cash.
So bottom line - I'd rather "defend" my ECU for myself and retain control over my own property.
It could be the wine
Jan 18, 2007, 06:18 AM
#15
OT
I like the idea of my local mitsu techs not even touching my car!The one time I decided to save money for a free oil change the "certified" master tech overfilled my oil.
Recently, I go there to order another can of diaqueen LSD oil (gl5) and the head mechanic stated the diaqueen should not go into the differentials and suggested it was intended for the tranny because of the weight and thats what they been using .
OT
Personally however, I would much rather purchace from a tuner a product thats up front with nothing to hide. They claim they're protecting their work - but let's get real here - the guy that invented the wheel sure as hell didn't hide his formula from the public. Thats greed and slows technology, but the truth lies in to the fact that if they want to lock it and you agree then it's a right.
Last edited by C6C6CH3vo; Jan 18, 2007 at 06:25 AM.