JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

Not to go terribly OT, but this is the difference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel

I believe you would say defame/defamation of another shop.

Mr. Evo IX

iTrader: (5)

Hey Sophie, thanks for helping me out earlier today. Here's how I see it.

Ok when you buy a suit from a good suit shop the tailer takes your measurements and then finds a suit on the rack that will be close, essentially a basemap to fit your mods. It should be close but probably not perfect. That's where the tailer or tuner comes in snip here and then sew there add a little fuel here, pull a little timing there. That's how tunes and suits go.

Here's the thing. Not everyone would try to tailor their own suit or tune their own car. Sure neither one are really rocket science but some people dont have aptitude, time, tools, or know-how and dont really care to learn or invest the time necesary to do a good job. A Custom Tune from a reputable tuner is probably the best option for these folks.

Just a mail in flash with no adjustments seems really scary to me because you could be knocking like crazy and not know it if you didnt log your car. It's like buying a non tailored suit at walmart. Yea it might fit good and it might not. The thing is not many tuners have blown up cars with low level bolt on mods and I think it's a tribute to the knock control system.

Then there's people who would tune their own car if only they knew how. They dont feel confident enough to jump right in and want to start out with a cheap basemap that's not going to blow up their car and dont mind doing some logging and emailing images back and forth, while at the same time learning about tuning. This is where TTP, Jestr, maybe even Dynoflash and probably some others come in. These people will be able to datalog their car anytime they want and will have the ability to monitor important metrics to make sure that everything is going well. Possibly a better situation than a custom tune if you ask me. When they change their mods they will probably have the aptitude to adjust their tune themselves and maybe even will learn enough to completely tune it themselves at some point. Probably a lot of people got involved with tuning this way, especially in this forum.

All of that said, I would prefer not to have all of the built in safety features of my ECU removed, I want Hi and low maps, I want my car to have a limp mode for it's own safety. I want my AFR's to be set conservatively with a knock free tune. Between me, my remote tuner, and ECU Flash I can have all of that. Most of the limit issues are extremely easy to fix. Boost cut, 2 step, rev limiter, etc.. these are the easiest things to change in the image.

And finally there's the people like the guru's of this forum who have the knowledge and tune their own cars and help other's in the open source community be able to tune their own cars. They are enthusiasts and hobbyists and even professionals. It's a big tent and there is room for everyone.

SophieSleeps

iTrader: (19)

I don't think you understood my analogy at all.
I'm saying never to buy a tune from a dude who has never seen your car.

Your analogy is exactly what I think should happen. Dude should tune for your specific car.

burgers22

I see, another reasoned argument about timing, boost cut and knock sum.

MB

nj1266

iTrader: (6)

No it will not come back to bite him in the ***. You know why? Because these "expert" tuners know fully well that the Evo has a stout engine and they know that the ECU is VERY good at pulling timing to protect the engine.

So they start their base maps very aggressive and let the ECU take care of the rest. Then if the customer is savvy enough and logs his tune then he will see knock and complain to the tuner. Then and only then will the tuner fix the tune and e-mail him back a less aggressive map.

This way of doing things saves time and money for the tuner. The better way to tune by e-mail is to start off with a conservative map and work up from there. But that will take the tuner more time and he will make less money. So he uses the strength of the Evo engine and the effeciency of the ECU to his advantage.

Postive reviews do not mean much when most of the end users simply flash the ECU and then do not log their engine with Evoscan/Mitsulogger. 90% of them do not even own a wideband. Yet they come here and type crap like "xxxx tuner FTW." They do not explain why and they do not know what is happening to their own car.

savaho

iTrader: (10)

well mr. savvy tuner where are the other 10% who have found out about jestrs aggressive maps and want to complain about it? ive yet to hear from them

SophieSleeps

iTrader: (19)

The dude has no clue and it's fine. He can go with a mail-in flash.

The truth is that the people who buy mail-in flashes don't know enough to give a good review of them.

It's like giving a nicely made wine to someone who doesn't drink wine. They can say it's great but they really don't have a clue what they're drinking.

That's one of the first things I realized when I first came to this site. It's a bunch of car-retarded people leading other people down the same car-retarded path with mis-information and credit-less opinions. Amazing how so many evom members have calibrated butt-dyno's.

SophieSleeps

iTrader: (19)

Because they don't have a clue how to check, nor monitor their ignition timing.

Unless you know what you're talking about and can critique an ignition timing map, I wouldn't be so bold as to put your faith behind it.

Your argument is essentially "everyone else uses it so it must be good"

Fine if you want to think that way.
Just provide some some actual info if you're gonna try and argue with people who know more than you.

burgers22

Have you seen any maps with the issues being discused here? Have you seen any logs from cars running those maps? Do you know what octain number is?

MB

codgi

iTrader: (22)

Well I must admit that I also don't know what an octain number is...I do know what an octane number is though .

That being said. There are good points from both sides (doesn't matter that this same type of thread seems to be repeated over and over again as the years have gone by just insert different tuner name here)...at the end of the day chances are that if some of the people who buy base flashes don't even have widebands then they definitely shouldn't be attempting to tune their own cars. Some of them also don't have the skills or time to do it, so even though the map may not be that great it might be x times better than if that person did it themselves.

On the other hand, some of the base maps put out by some tuners out there sometimes are too aggressive. But for $50...tuners are going to go with the one size fits all plan...which if your car is one of the choosen few probably does run really great with it. If you want you can pay more and get a custom fit...which for that bracket of user described above is still the better option.

People jump up and down and get on as if some of the things going on in the tuner world today are some new evill. Tuners are businessmen at the end of the day...for $50 you aren't going to get a full custom tune...you'll get something in the ballpark maybe...but no different than if you go and buy a generic suit from Wal mart or a custom fitted one from Armani. One costs a lot and probably fits great...one doesn't and unless your the exact size they cut it from your horked.

SophieSleeps

iTrader: (19)

Except when you buy a suit it won't blow up your motor. It'll just make you look bad if it isn't fitted right which costs nothing but pride.

Blowing your motor cost money and may be your ride to work, or to pick up that chickie for dinner-sex.

burgers22

Spelling is not my strong suite !

Indeed I have seen the same arguments in the short time I have owned an Evo. It is often repeated about one tuner or another and I would not comment on another persons work without good reason.

This asked about opionions for a mail in flash, some responed positivly, others of us raised questions about areas some maps that had been seen. It is irksome that posts were made, which contained no technical data to support the ideas of the poster, mearly childish name calling.

If a person buys a mail in flash for $50, that is up to them. the flash may or may not be very good for thier cars,performance but at that cost the purcheser can hardly be suprised. It is unfortunate that when a technical critic of the flashes in question raise importaint issues, some people get very defensive and can't make reasoned argument in repley.

There will always be a cost performance relationship, though this is not always to the same ratio. People need to be aware of the pros and cons, sorry if the cons have upset some.

MB

codgi

iTrader: (22)

Continuing the analogy...if you end up wearing the suit to an interview and the people spend more time looking at the suit then listening to you (And making decisions based on that suit) and you lose out on the job....

Then chances are all that with all student debt you been acquiring, the ride to work may have to go to.... And then you still not getting the chick neither .

The ECU on the evo also isn't completely stupid...once the tune is in the ballpark (which like it or not most $50 flashes are somewhere there) the engine probably lives to tell another day.

Evo_Jay

iTrader: (17)

I have a jestr tune. I was not happy with it.

I logged it, Gtech dynoed it and ran it at the track. After, I desided to remove it and tune myself.

My friend also got a Jestr tune, and was less then happy with it.

I never posted a negitive review(s) because I didnt want to be told that I was "bashing" a tuner.

If you'd like me to go on and explain what I didnt like about the tunes, I will.

Also, If anyone would like to purchase my Jestr flash (for tuning knowledge & info) I will sell it for 20$.

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

That's one way to gey yourself in trouble. Watch yourself man.