Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

6 to 8 counts isn't an "agressive tune" that's a crappy tune

TouringBubble

iTrader: (2)

I agree ... an aggressive tune might have 0 or 1 knock in places. What makes it aggressive is that increasing timing by 1*, AFR by .1 or a shift in weather could induce knock.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Eric

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

right, what you want is consistent 0-1 counts, but the occasional 2 or 3 counts max shouldn't cause much concern. Anything over that and your performance is going to begin to suffer greatly. A tune that rarely ever sees more than 0 counts is likely on the conservative side which isn't always a bad thing if you're into roadcoarse/autox or just aren't interested in getting every last horsepower.

oldevodude

iTrader: (3)

A stock Evo can knock in 5th gear (my 5 speed) going up a slight hill at around 3000 RPM light throttle position. I wanted to see if under slightly heavier "loads" or strains if the car would knock and it did/does indeed knock. Based on this if you are paranoid about knock and want to stay at zero counts then you better pull timing from a stock EVO lol. Anyway found it interesting and thought I would share. Shoot if the weather changes as in the 80's or 90's knock count goes up as well. I run a stock map for now until I get wideband then I will proceed to tune very slowly and conservatively while logging/monitoring both AFR and knock. EGT would lso be nice but I'm just a Po Boy these days LOL.

PS I tried the mail-in flash gig and will never run that block "toon" crap again.
Car ran like a bat outta hell but there was no margin of safety left in the mapping and I was knocking like a *****.

Mellon Racing

iTrader: (38)

no doubt, these cars will see some knock bone stock, octane, weather etc.. all play their part in that, that doesn't mean you have to accept it.

p.s. I don't do ANY block timing and none of my customers have to live with unacceptable knock levels, we keep at it until it's perfect. Not all tuners are the same

codgi

iTrader: (22)

Yep. In fact often if you look at a log of a car that has consistent knock starting from low rpm and going into mid-high rpm, you can lower the timing low rpm, just reflash those changes and poof the mid rpm knock either consistently disappears or is now considerably less.

evoRS06

iTrader: (1)

im not saying its hitting counts and holding them, then the car will pull timing hard to protect the motor. And if you read the post again i said that 0 knock would occur with an aggresive tune if in perfect conditions, or controlled conditions, your object is to not just watch knock and tune strictly by it, but to watch the power band, you want the smoothest power band you can make and believe it our not sometimes you have more knock in a smoother graph than in a choppier one. but ask anybody that puts down retarted fast times down the 1320, and im pretty sure that it will match what i was saying. just give a call to any perf. tuner, someone like Lucas English or jestr, and see what they say. but to each his own, i just want to help, i had no help other than trial/error, and reading the post of the first users and following their conversations, and it sucked.

jcsbanks

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...5&d=1182787157

This graph from my pocket PC shows an hour of commuting driving with optimised mapping on my engine. Knock is on the y-axis and RPM on the x-axis. There is a single pixel plotted for every running point the engine has been through, and I color it red if TPS was 100%, blue if 90-99.6%, green if <90%. Whilst this drive didn't extend into high revs the picture would be similar if it had.

You'll see the knock sum was 3 on lift off, but not over 2 on full load.

If it always runs zero the tune is too conservative and you are on a knock limited engine (like ours on pump fuel) leaving timing and performance on the table.

If it runs over 3 then the timing is pulled by more and for longer than it would be if you tuned it to run less knock sum. The knock sum decays on a counter even when knock has finished so even a moderate knock at 3000 RPM can still be retarding a few degrees up at 6000 RPM.

6-8 counts is most certainly a crappy tune. Even if it is false knock it should be sorted out because you're losing performance.

evoRS06

iTrader: (1)

i'm telling you , do some research on some of these guys running their car with knock counts spiking 6 and feathering. bottom line its all about the power band and if your tunning yourself tune for scarace knock once you start getting the hang of it start reading actual papers on the combustiion engine and how it reacts under certain instances. you'll learn alot.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

I think you need to do some research on the workings of the stock ECU and how it functions, especially in terms of knock.

A lot of these 'tuners' that you speak of that run 'crazy fast times' actually ditch the stock ECU because they don't know what's going on either and get frustrated with the stock ECU knock control.

This isn't a debate about how an engine works, it's about how our stock ECU interprets and handles knock. I think this may be where you are lacking in your knowledge.

This forum is about the stock ECU and using ECUFlash to tune it. There are many people working very hard to disassemble the ECU and write new code to control it in different ways. The stock ECU, in reality, is a stand-alone, as long as you have the ability and knowledge to disassemble the code, understand the code, and write new code where it may be needed. The problem is most people don't have the knowledge to do this. Fortunately, in this forum and Jack's forum, there are quite a few bright people here that do have this kind of knowledge.

Every piece of advice that has been given to you is factual as to how the stock ECU handles knock, in terms of pulling timing or using a weighted average towards the low octane maps.

It's not that people here don't understand how an engine works....it's just they understand how the ECU works and they tune accordingly and with peace of mind. Knock will not only pull timing and hurt performance, but in the long run, if you're lucky, it will give a beating to your bearings. If you're not lucky, it will blow an engine.

A lot of the 'tuners' that run these 'crazy' times may only need their engine to last a racing season or even less. Each person has their own way to tune, but don't pass bad information on how you should tune and that 6-8 knock counts are good.

Heck, by your logic, let's just turn off our knock sensor and try to run 40 psi. I bet our cars will be 'retarded' fast until they break 50 feet down the track. But, hey, it was 'retarded' fast while it lasted, right?


Eric

lemmonhead

lets not forget logging software, can users really believe in all of them? Im sure some say there is some sort of knock when actually the OEM software says otherwise. Software algorithms are not all the same, just like adaware, spyware and other software on your home computer says,no virsus found or spyware or whatever. You still could have a virus even though they say otherwise.
So some of the confusiong not is coming from how the heck the the OEM software does its magic, but sometimes its the logging software that is confusing you!!

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

This is completely untrue. Don't start with this kind of junk. The logging software (EvoScan, Mitsulogger, LogWorks) all read the knock sum value from the ECU. There is no modification of that data.

Its quite easy to prove this for yourself by watching the timing and the knock sum together. If what you propose were true, then the logging program could show knock counts without the ECU pulling any timing. This never happens for significant knock sums (4+). I have never seen an instance where EvoScan showed a knock sum of 2 (or more) where the ECU did not pull back timing.

And if you actually could read the programming languages for the software and the ROM, you could see for yourself that the software is simply requesting the knock sum value from the ECU.

EvoBroMA

where do you come up with this stuff? you're obviously not a developer. leave that kind of commentary to the developers. i don't mean to jump on your back, but c'mon man. you're just plain wrong.

evoRS06

iTrader: (1)

l2r99gst maybe your right but everything ive said has happened that way on about, i dont know almost 15 evos ive looked at and tuned. maybe your just not understanging what im writing, can you read english? to the original poster its the graph your wanting to tune to, it WILL NOT BE SMOOTH if your knocking and holding counts and you will loose power, and if you want more safety raise the octane or look at water injection.