burgers22

I'm not sure I understand you as well.

The issue here is that the stock ECU can and will pull timing with 3 counts of knock and at 6 counts will start to interpolate between the high and low maps. you can find instances where a 3 count of knock won't pull timing but this is rare.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but you ask if I2r99gst can read English. Have you actually looked at the grammar and spelling in your post?

MB

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

Can I read English....hmmmm. Let's take a look at a few things that you call English, shall we?


I think you mean 'tuning' and 'scarce' knock.

I think the word you're hunting for is 'combustion'.

I think you are looking for 'you're', not your.

And thank you...I am right.


Also, since I can't really read English, maybe you can explain why you like writing contradictions to yourself...maybe a split personality?:


Maybe you woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Why are you acting like an *** when people are trying to help you understand the workings of the stock ECU and your misundstanding of knock?

Also, to answer your own contradicting quotes above, a graph (assuming that you are meaning a dyno graph) can be smooth or rough with the presence of knock. It matters if the increase in knock from one point in time to the next is a rapid increase or not. This is what causes the rough graph (because of the pulled timing), not solely the fact that you are knocking.


Eric

Murf

iTrader: (2)

log your run take note of where the knock is..check timing in that area..adjust

evoRS06

iTrader: (1)

i dont see a contradiction there. I said with more knock, as in a quanity, and that it wont be smooth if your holding the counts. I just got off the phone with lucas english and he seems to be on the same page; but i guess he doesn't know about the evo stock ecu too, huh? he's been tuning the 4G63 for 10 years and just ran 11.5 on an '04 SSL. basics are you dont want knock, but if you get it in a map that creates more power then so be it. Im not saying go run 6 to 8 counts constant and expect more power or your motor to last, but if you hit 6 at 3k or 3.5k and it tappers down to 0 then the in-between isn't knock, its the ecus way of bringing the timing back up to the target degree on the map. Look man im not trying to bash you and if its coming off that way im sorry, im just trying to share what i know.

evoRS06

iTrader: (1)

I was at work and had to run back and forth to the comp., sorry about the grammer, plus the fact that i cant spell to save my life, doesnt help! lol.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

If you hit 6 counts of knock at 3k or 3.5k, then the ECU will pull 2 degrees of timing and because of the decay function it will pull timing after that, until the knock count reaches 0, where, as you stated, there really isn't any knock. The knock count will decay back to 0, as long as no more knock occurs.

That is the whole point why you should tune just to the point of knock and no more than a count or two, preferrably 0, if you know the point at which you will begin to knock. Timing being pulled reduces power and the knock decay algorithm in the stock ECU will continue pulling timing during that decay time. This decay will take longer during a higher knock count to get back to 0 and the intended timing in your ignition map.

In that same scenario that you stated where 6 counts of knock appeared at 3k RPM and tapered to 0...if you simply removed 1 or two degrees at 3k, then you may have 0 knock the whole run, get more timing, as the map wants, and make more power. I don't where you think less timing is giving you more power.

Also, I know you're not trying to bash me and are just sharing what you have experienced or heard, but in my years with DSMs and now Evos and learning a lot about the stock ECU from the DSMLink creators and now through the disassembly of the Evo ECU, I'm simply sharing what I know, too.


Eric

tephra

iTrader: (6)

EvoRS06 - this is the answer:

- TUNE FOR ZERO KNOCK -

why?
1) When the ECU detects knock it pulls timing, so you might as well tune for it in the first place!!!

2) When you get say 5 counts of knock @ 3500/250 you are more likely to knock at 4000/250, and 4500/250 - it's what I call "a knock avalanche" - knock upsteam in the map induces knock downstream that wouldn't normally be there.

C6C6CH3vo

iTrader: (9)

Sometimes knock happens without respect to tune (I get knock in first gear at mid throttle before boost every time), engine temp and heat soak also makes a decent tune knock, but its hard to make power with significant knock when timing goes off track and fuel maps switch so tuune befor knock threshold

codgi

iTrader: (22)

+1 to what Mr Fred said. To go slightly OT here the analogy is not even close. The reason why adware, spware and other software can often not detect malware is most likely because their definitions which is what they use to search for the said malware hasn't been updated.

The basic algorithm for those programs says "look for this type of behaviour and if you see it knock it over". New definitions just extend the types of behaviour to look for...they don't change the basic algo of the program but now "poof" the malware can now be found. Update those and they should find the malware and if they don't then get your money back .

That has nothing to do with the values that the logging programs that the majority of this forum use...which wherever possible explicitly ask the ECU for whatever values it is using for its various comparisons. You could have made this basic argument for Calculated load...which was a best guess effort outside the ECU to approximate what load cell the ECU was in but not knocksum.

To be fair people are always afraid of something new...flashback a little over a year on this forum and other tuners were questioning the validity of certain values returned from these programs as well...my how their tunes (pardon the pun) have changed .

lemmonhead

The OEM ROM is not transfereing memory dump to the datalog software. Its reading in real time the interpretation from the OEM. Therefore, the datalog software can and will miss this "real time data" on occasion. The sampling rate is not infinite, there is room to "skip a beat" it would be better if you can download froma memory dump, but we cant.

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

It is at a tuner's discretion as to what level is safe for the how the car is intended to be used.

One thing being overlooked is as of right now at this moment, the temperature, humidity and conditions will differ than any other time so a tuner may decide to leave some minute sums or make other decisions based on forward thinking data and not just what is being read from the ECU on that very moment in time.

Weather changes, AIT changes, the conditions the car is operated in may be different than the condition in which the car is tuned in.

All this needs to be taken into account when determining where to leave a map at the end of a tune.

jcsbanks

Decay interval knocksum > sample interval

In this case can you explain how knock sum data is ever missed?

"The OEM ROM is not transfereing memory dump to the datalog software."

Perhaps you can explain the following code then that shows that it is?

ROM:000217BA mov.l @(h'DC,pc), r0 ; [00021898] = REQ_MUT_0
ROM:000217BC mov.l @(r0,r1), r10
ROM:000217BE mov.b @r10, r8

(r0=MUT table base, r1=request ID offset, r8=byte to the serial port)

That MUT table contains the addresses of real RAM variables. The logging is easily fast enough. Some values are clipped or heavily quantized, but practically I don't see the limitations, and if I did I would be addressing them by rewriting them.

Turbo Kyle

iTrader: (33)

I was running 93 octane BP fuel and running 24 psi (stock tune)....had a few 3's and some 2's. Right after that we flashed in the new tune from TTP. Knock went down to a few 2's some 1's and the rest was 0's. Pulls were made in 3rd gear starting a 3K all the way to 7K. I think a few hits of 3's wont hurt anything.

TTP Engineering

iTrader: (465)

Don't question Mr. Banks and the ECU code.

jcsbanks

It's Dr Banks