supersnow

iTrader: (6)

Well the tuner for this map is supposed to be the top gun when it come s to EVOs.

iTune

iTrader: (3)

Spreading mis-information? Actually, you are wrong my friend. No offense. This is a common practice in tunes. The fact is this, to a certain extent if ignition timing is a few degs over advanced, you can raise the detonation threshold by cooling the cylinder temps and lowering cylinder pressures by adding more fuel. I'm sorry you don't feel as though this is possible, but it is and is done all the time. It's especially common in speed density ECU's running MAP sensor clamp AFC piggy backs. Let me give you a "for instance".

Honda K20A2 engine, running a cybernation 60-1 turbo kit @ 10psi using the Cybernation Guardian piggyback(AFC MAP sensor voltage clamp). The AFC piggy back is altering MAP sensor volatage to force the ECU to look at low load areas of the fuel and ignition timing maps to run 550cc injectors(stock injectors are 310cc). By clamping MAP voltage, and forcing the ECU to look at these areas of the stock maps to control duty cycle, the ECU is over advancing ignitoin timing in boost(side effect of MAP sensor Voltage clamp). By trying to control detonation, the areas of the maps the ECU is looking at using 550cc injectors are making the engine run AFR's in the low 10:1 AFR. Ignition timing is about 2-3 degs over advanced. By running these types of AFRs, cooling and keeping cylinder temps down, the detonation threshold is actually raised. This effect is similiar to what happens when you are able to cool the intake charge going into the combustion chamber. When ever you can cool the charge, you actually raise the detonation threshold. How much you can raise it depends and is really not important by using this method, because this method is not safe, nor is it good for power. But people do it. Like i stated earlier, especially using AFC piggybacks. On one car i tested using this piggy back, the clamp was actually allowing a even lower MAP voltage, which was causing the car to lean out a lot, ignitoin timing was WAY too overadvanced and the knock protocols were in full effect, this engine was totally releying on the knock sensor to retard ignition timing. THis is past the "extent" i am reffering to.


Second example, again Honda K20A2 engine. Greddy T517Z turbo kit using the GReddy emanage piggy back. Again, the old emanage was a MAP sensor voltage clamp AFC that had ZERO direct control over ignition timing. Like the above set-up, it used the MAP sensor voltage to alter the way the ECU looked up it's tables. In order to run 440cc injectors, the MAP clamp had to look up areas that ignition timing was over advanced for boost(part throttle areas in N/A form). But looked up areas that kept fueling in the low 10:1 range, sometimes in the 9.5-9.8:1 range as i had seen on some set-ups. Ignition timing was again over advanced by about 2-4 degs in boost, if AFR's where at a resonable level.

The look up tables in the ECU are actually 2D. On one side, there is a fuel map and on the other side of the same cell, there is a ignition map that corresponds to the same cell. If you clamp MAP voltage to look at a certain cell, there will be a fuel value and a ignition value. IN order for these piggybacks to run larger injectors than stock, the MAP voltage has to be altered to force the ECU to look at cells in the low throttle, low load areas. This allows the larger injectors(which will flow more fuel at same injector pulse width than stock 310cc injectors) to keep pulse width low so that the injector is not dumping too much fuel. It's the only way a piggy back can control fueling and run larger injectors. But, a bad side effect is that in those low throttle, low load areas, ignition timing is way too advanced for boost.

In both examples, power was down about 20-30whp. It's important to add that if AFR's were in the correct range, with ignition timing that advanced, these engines would be knocking all over the place, but because the fuel was basically raising the detonation threshold, these engines were not experiencing detonation events. And in the rare event they did, the ECU's knock protocols retarded ignition timing. I know this for a fact, as i did serious R&D for the Hondata K-pro and researched both of these piggybacks and their negative effects on a boosted k-series engine.

After using a Hondata k-pro(standalone ECU) on both of these set-ups, we could proplerly control timing and AFR's. Once AFR's where leaned out to the 12.0:1 range and ignition timing was properly advanced, these engines made about 30whp more than the previous set-up and were much safer.


Here is a link to some of the testing i did and a article i did in refference to this testing. If you care to look.

Again, these form of tuning is not safe at all and is not good for power at all. Don't think that this is something that should be done. THis is the BIGGEST reason why i do not condone the use of piggybacks and WILL not tune one for a customer.

One thing about me, i don't spread mis-information. I am very well versed in the world of tuning. I'm not a back yard tuner, i have been involved in some serious projects and have a lot of back ground, well planted in internal combustion engine science and especially, boosted internal combustion engine science. I was a boosted k- series pioneer and have worked for the biggest name in the Honda world. Trust me, i know what i'm talking about.

Now they key is this, you not spreading mis-information.



CJ

iTune

iTrader: (3)

Here is some more info regarding the testing i did above.

http://www.hondata.com/dynok20a2guardian.html

CJ

vmrevo9

iTrader: (33)

is he not helping you? i've just tuned mine with a flash from jestr and he's been helping me out tremendously. do you have a copy of the stock map maybe you can compare them it might help you out

codgi

iTrader: (22)

Not every tuner has the same level of customer service...lets leave it at that

JohnBradley

iTrader: (30)

...or any customer service.

I would as already suggested drop the timing a few degrees. If you are only seeing 3 counts as it is, thats some where in the neighborhood of 1-2* that you can do without. If the AFR's are good (which from what I have seen from Cali cars is 10.5:1 or so) leave em be and worry about the timing instead.

fid

iTrader: (18)

Itune, yes to a VERY SMALL extent adding fuel to a over advanced condition will take heat from the combustion chamber it will NOT prevent detonation from happening, just at what severity it is happening. I actual forgot to mention this in my previous post but yes it is still misinformation. I do not have time to take a look at all the info you posted but just scanned through it so excuse me if I am missing something. I was commenting from the standpoint of a tune that had way to much ignition advance not a tune that was on the border of knocking or with light knock. So yes there is a certain amount of truth to the point that over fueling light knock will help take SOME of the damage being done away but it still does not prevent or cure the problem. Like I said before the uncontrolled explosion is going to happen when there is to much advance no matter how much fuel is present. I have tuned way to many EMS's and piggybacks and heard it from what I consider to be the horsesmouth, Ben Strader EFI University, to know that overfueling a overadvanced condition to be a band-aid not fixing the problem because the problem still exists .

bigric09

iTrader: (37)

its funny reading this... after sending in for a tune from that guy..... i almost immediately got a SES light. P0301. Emailed him over and over, sent emails to his secretary Warr something or other lol, and i got one reply from Warrtalon, he is busy and will get with you in a day or so.... needless to say i never heard from him. I notice if you blast him on the forums he replies fast, but i did not want to go that route. I began to read the tuning sections, got some pointers from a few guys here and fixed my problem. It is back again, and i dont know what the problem is, but its just both funny and sad, the amount of customer service we see from a few of these vendors here

fid

iTrader: (18)

Oh, I just thought of a perfect example for you Itune. And before I go on once again I am not trying to be a jerk or anything because that can be easily mistaken on the internet. Why, when watching a egt probes temps, when a motor starts to get advanced past MBT do you see the EGT temps drop? Because the igintion is happening so early in the combustion process the heat has a longer time to get absorbed into the coolant passages surrounding the chamber therefore showing on a EGT gauge as cooler. Detonation could be happening and showing less of a temp then say you had at best peak torque. Would fueling this instance help any of that out? Maybe it would slightly by way of pure heat absorbution but detonation would still occur because it is not heat that caused that the stroke to detonate but purely to much advance. Do you understand what I am trying to say???

supersnow

iTrader: (6)

For what I understand, itune never said that dumping fuel on agressive timing was good, he just point out the fact that some "tuners" believe in dumping fuel with alot of timing makes good power, which is of course a no go.

fid

iTrader: (18)

I understand this and was just trying to reconfirm my point that adding fuel to detonation still will not cure or even help the situation out enough to stop it from happening. That is my whole point.....

Jeff_Jeske

iTrader: (66)

I wouldn't trust that octane booster crap at all.

The most common way to tune is run stock fuel and timing tables and set boost where you want it. Then lean out the AFR to 11:1 on pump. Pull 2* of timing prior to any knock event that you are seeing add 1* of timing where you can get away with it if you see knock pull 2*.

mplspilot

iTrader: (7)

I was under impression that (for example) 10afr mix will burn slower than 11afr.
So that would be another reason why dumping more fuel can deter knock by curing pre-ignition which results from overadvanced timing....along with giving out less heat during burn...along with charge being cooler...


sorry for threadjacking contribution.....

supersnow

iTrader: (6)

Most octane boosters sucks, but very few ones like NOS and outlaw actually works, when I said independing testing thats what it is, abunch of scientist and enthuisast just conduct testing on their on and then post the results, also car mag. like modified performed testing on their on, so is not crap it actually raises your octane number by almost two point.

iTune

iTrader: (3)

I think you are cought up in trying to prove me wrong, that you failed to comprehend what i'm saying. Please re-read all of my posts. You are arguing semantics at this point. What i have been saying all along is this; adding fuel to slightly over advanced ignition timing can and will help combat knock. It's not a good thing to do at all, it's bad for power and safety. But to a certain extent it's possible to do. It happens all the time. Tuners do it, piggybacks do it. It's not proper at all. What i have also said, that if ignition timing is too overadvanced, adding fuel will not help the situation. So, you are arguing about nothing at this point, because nothing you are saying now, is anything i have not already said.

Fact is, you are agreeing with what i'm saying, but you don't realize it.

70% of your combustion chamber temps get extracted out of the combustion chamber VIA the spark plug, which acts as a heatsink to the head and from there the heat is obsorbed into the coolant. EGT's will be higher as ignitin timing is retarded, the more you retard ignition timing, the higher the EGT's. Say you start off at 10* ignition timing. EGT's are at xxxx*F. As you advance ignition timing, EGT's should go down, once you hit peak torque output, EGT's should go back up a bit. Once you go past peak torque output, EGT's will start to fall again, because you are loosing power. You might be 2-3 degs under the detonation threshold, but still loosing power. EGT's will obviously show lower, because of the loss of power output. Just because you are on the other side of power output does not mean you are automatically detonating. You could have another 2-3 degs of advance left before you reach the detonation threshold. Some of that is what you are saying about the heat being able to escape the combustion chamber because it has a longer time to be exchanged. That does not necisarliy mean you are experincing detonation. And your right, Throwing more fuel at it at that point won't make a difference.

anyway, i enjoy a good volly every once in awhile. But let's keep this thread on track. Let's not hijack it any longer(although this info pertains to the thread)

CJ