My timing map suck?
Apr 18, 2007, 05:59 AM
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My timing map suck?
This is my map that a got from a tune last year, I'm not a tuner but I think it can be improve by alot. Some pointers would be apreaciate, specially where to start........ that block of 7s is not safe I think specially on 91 octane.
Last edited by supersnow; Dec 19, 2009 at 03:24 PM.
Apr 18, 2007, 06:35 AM
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3 counts is not bad at all. You could try decreasing hte timing in the areas where you are currently getting knock and then slowly raise you timing until you get knock, then back it down to the previous knock free timing value.
Apr 18, 2007, 03:39 PM
#11
Your timing maps don't look very good at all, especially for 91 octane. Can you post some datalogs? I would be interested in seeing them. I suggest buying a Wideband and seeing what your AFR's are.
Timing in the peak torque range looks about 2-3* too advanced, mid range looks to be OK, then peak power(upper RPM) looks to be overadvanced again. If you are not getting knock, i bet your AFR's are super rich.
There is a small possibility that your engine might be wanting this much timing advance, but on 91 octane, i highly doubt it. It is a fact that all engines and set-ups are different and will call for different timing. But, i suspect the tuner is throwing a lot of fuel at it to drown out the detonation.
I'm not saying this is deffinatly the case, but i know some tuners think that more timing is good, even if they have to drown out the detonation with more fuel. Fact is, this is not true. You stand to make more power with correct ignition timing and leaner AFR's(11.0-11.5:1). I have personally fixed many tunes from tuners that thought it was better to have AFR's in the low 10:1 range with ignition timing over advanced by many degs. Needless to say, the engine made more power, safer with ignition timing in the conservative range and AFR's @11.0:1. Also, AFR's in the low 11:1 range is very safe.
Please don't confuse what i'm saying by thinking "leaner AFR's make a lot more power", this isn't the case. Once you get to a certain point in the safe range, power will not be increased much by going any leaner. You actually won't make but a few extra WHP if you keep leaning AFR's out. This is not a healthy trade off for power. Leaner AFR's than 11.5:1 are getting close to unsafe, and the few extra WHP's you make are not worth it.
Case in point: Get AFR's in the 11.0-11.5:1 range, and retune ignition timing within 1-2 degs of peak output.
One more thing, a fact about ignitoin timing and knock. If you are doing a street tune, you must realize this; if you advance ignition timing until you hit knock, then retard ignitoin timing until it's no longer there, you may still be in a dangerous area. Peak power is usually 1-2 degs before the knock threshold is hit. Now remember, for safety, you want to be at least 1 deg below that. So, this is why we recommend using a dyno for tuning ignitoin timing. Because without it, you cant see where peak output is. Peak output is not always just before detonation(knock). Like i said, sometimes it can be 1 deg or so before that.
Some food for thought.
CJ
Timing in the peak torque range looks about 2-3* too advanced, mid range looks to be OK, then peak power(upper RPM) looks to be overadvanced again. If you are not getting knock, i bet your AFR's are super rich.
There is a small possibility that your engine might be wanting this much timing advance, but on 91 octane, i highly doubt it. It is a fact that all engines and set-ups are different and will call for different timing. But, i suspect the tuner is throwing a lot of fuel at it to drown out the detonation.
I'm not saying this is deffinatly the case, but i know some tuners think that more timing is good, even if they have to drown out the detonation with more fuel. Fact is, this is not true. You stand to make more power with correct ignition timing and leaner AFR's(11.0-11.5:1). I have personally fixed many tunes from tuners that thought it was better to have AFR's in the low 10:1 range with ignition timing over advanced by many degs. Needless to say, the engine made more power, safer with ignition timing in the conservative range and AFR's @11.0:1. Also, AFR's in the low 11:1 range is very safe.
Please don't confuse what i'm saying by thinking "leaner AFR's make a lot more power", this isn't the case. Once you get to a certain point in the safe range, power will not be increased much by going any leaner. You actually won't make but a few extra WHP if you keep leaning AFR's out. This is not a healthy trade off for power. Leaner AFR's than 11.5:1 are getting close to unsafe, and the few extra WHP's you make are not worth it.
Case in point: Get AFR's in the 11.0-11.5:1 range, and retune ignition timing within 1-2 degs of peak output.
One more thing, a fact about ignitoin timing and knock. If you are doing a street tune, you must realize this; if you advance ignition timing until you hit knock, then retard ignitoin timing until it's no longer there, you may still be in a dangerous area. Peak power is usually 1-2 degs before the knock threshold is hit. Now remember, for safety, you want to be at least 1 deg below that. So, this is why we recommend using a dyno for tuning ignitoin timing. Because without it, you cant see where peak output is. Peak output is not always just before detonation(knock). Like i said, sometimes it can be 1 deg or so before that.
Some food for thought.
CJ
Apr 18, 2007, 04:22 PM
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Your timing maps don't look very good at all, especially for 91 octane. Can you post some datalogs? I would be interested in seeing them. I suggest buying a Wideband and seeing what your AFR's are.
Timing in the peak torque range looks about 2-3* too advanced, mid range looks to be OK, then peak power(upper RPM) looks to be overadvanced again. If you are not getting knock, i bet your AFR's are super rich.
There is a small possibility that your engine might be wanting this much timing advance, but on 91 octane, i highly doubt it. It is a fact that all engines and set-ups are different and will call for different timing. But, i suspect the tuner is throwing a lot of fuel at it to drown out the detonation.
I'm not saying this is deffinatly the case, but i know some tuners think that more timing is good, even if they have to drown out the detonation with more fuel. Fact is, this is not true. You stand to make more power with correct ignition timing and leaner AFR's(11.0-11.5:1). I have personally fixed many tunes from tuners that thought it was better to have AFR's in the low 10:1 range with ignition timing over advanced by many degs. Needless to say, the engine made more power, safer with ignition timing in the conservative range and AFR's @11.0:1. Also, AFR's in the low 11:1 range is very safe.
Please don't confuse what i'm saying by thinking "leaner AFR's make a lot more power", this isn't the case. Once you get to a certain point in the safe range, power will not be increased much by going any leaner. You actually won't make but a few extra WHP if you keep leaning AFR's out. This is not a healthy trade off for power. Leaner AFR's than 11.5:1 are getting close to unsafe, and the few extra WHP's you make are not worth it.
Case in point: Get AFR's in the 11.0-11.5:1 range, and retune ignition timing within 1-2 degs of peak output.
One more thing, a fact about ignitoin timing and knock. If you are doing a street tune, you must realize this; if you advance ignition timing until you hit knock, then retard ignitoin timing until it's no longer there, you may still be in a dangerous area. Peak power is usually 1-2 degs before the knock threshold is hit. Now remember, for safety, you want to be at least 1 deg below that. So, this is why we recommend using a dyno for tuning ignitoin timing. Because without it, you cant see where peak output is. Peak output is not always just before detonation(knock). Like i said, sometimes it can be 1 deg or so before that.
Some food for thought.
CJ
Timing in the peak torque range looks about 2-3* too advanced, mid range looks to be OK, then peak power(upper RPM) looks to be overadvanced again. If you are not getting knock, i bet your AFR's are super rich.
There is a small possibility that your engine might be wanting this much timing advance, but on 91 octane, i highly doubt it. It is a fact that all engines and set-ups are different and will call for different timing. But, i suspect the tuner is throwing a lot of fuel at it to drown out the detonation.
I'm not saying this is deffinatly the case, but i know some tuners think that more timing is good, even if they have to drown out the detonation with more fuel. Fact is, this is not true. You stand to make more power with correct ignition timing and leaner AFR's(11.0-11.5:1). I have personally fixed many tunes from tuners that thought it was better to have AFR's in the low 10:1 range with ignition timing over advanced by many degs. Needless to say, the engine made more power, safer with ignition timing in the conservative range and AFR's @11.0:1. Also, AFR's in the low 11:1 range is very safe.
Please don't confuse what i'm saying by thinking "leaner AFR's make a lot more power", this isn't the case. Once you get to a certain point in the safe range, power will not be increased much by going any leaner. You actually won't make but a few extra WHP if you keep leaning AFR's out. This is not a healthy trade off for power. Leaner AFR's than 11.5:1 are getting close to unsafe, and the few extra WHP's you make are not worth it.
Case in point: Get AFR's in the 11.0-11.5:1 range, and retune ignition timing within 1-2 degs of peak output.
One more thing, a fact about ignitoin timing and knock. If you are doing a street tune, you must realize this; if you advance ignition timing until you hit knock, then retard ignitoin timing until it's no longer there, you may still be in a dangerous area. Peak power is usually 1-2 degs before the knock threshold is hit. Now remember, for safety, you want to be at least 1 deg below that. So, this is why we recommend using a dyno for tuning ignitoin timing. Because without it, you cant see where peak output is. Peak output is not always just before detonation(knock). Like i said, sometimes it can be 1 deg or so before that.
Some food for thought.
CJ
Thanks.
Apr 18, 2007, 05:15 PM
#13
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Have fun with the reference !
Last edited by gunzo; Apr 18, 2007 at 05:17 PM.
Apr 18, 2007, 07:06 PM
#15
. I really think if people want to tune there cars to make good power and be safe they really need to invest in the tools and time. You really need a wideband and get to a dyno to 1) Be in a safe enviroment where you don't have to worry about traffic people, etc. 2) You can watch things like peak torque to see how the car really is taking to ignition advance and compare it to any datalogging you are doing. And this is at a minimum. Personally, I rarely tune my cars without also a EGT probe and a pair of Det cans to backup what the knock sensor is telling me. I know this is no relevance to the post so sorry to the original poster for taking up a spot
.