211Ratsbud

iTrader: (1)

Can someone measure the exact depth of an oe als manifold injection ports?(from banjo bolt side ) I have a spare one to drill but un sure how deep to have them drilled. And does the port holes go between all four cylinders or just one cylinder per tube? If it were the former does this cause any negative effects on the twin scroll ?

evoRS06

iTrader: (1)

I don't know the exact depth but the ports feed 1&2 and then 3&4 cylinders and no it doesn't seem to hurt spool.

VGergo

iTrader: (3)

Hello,


Is it with the throttlebody bypass valve connect in Y with the brake booster line and -20 degrees retard in the ignition map ? OR any other tricks ?
DId you write the stock ALS code in the rom to inject fuel after wot ?

claudiumxg

let me clarfy the facts, the sas system is there for antilag and is only present on the homologation models(jdm) only later few edm models (the 260) were allowed to compete in regional and national series, the jdm models were the only models allowed in FIA (pwrc series) and had the sas there especially for group A/early wrc. even from the evo 5 days the system was present on 4g63, but it also had to be comercialy viable and that is why is a relatevely simple air injection system.
in the early days :step 1 and 2 wrc/aka gr.A engine it was used exactlly as on standard cars- meaning with banjo bolts and holes , later bigger holes were employed in the banjos and starting from step 2 evo 2 engines on 6.5 tme allathe way to step 3 engineon evo 7 gr.a/wrc it changed to vertical fitings(not 90 degres banjo) which allowed more flow as the controls end ecu evolved , in the eary days with the gems ecu they had 6 map sensors and 3 solenoids and a manual reg just to control the sas...later with magnetti marrelli step 9 and marvel ecu things became even more complex involving hig speed moog valves ....
any way to properly use the sas you have to eliminate(mount it in reverese position so pressure keeps it closed, or plug the lines as on gr.n cars) the dv(bov) so all pressure is fed in the manifold/ you could have a safety discharge valve as on the early evo 5-6 but without vacum control just spring or vacuum and solenoid control depending on strategy but not related to throttle induced vacum(closed throttle)..... on later wrc ther is no dicharge at all because of the way sas is controlled.... you also need a vacum acumulator to dampen the puses from manifold and have fast reacting valves regardless of the throttle position and map pressure. the sas was controled on early days with oem ecu but some special rom that had rutines in it before the standalones apeared on the market
the gr.n with jacked up throttle (15-20%) was a compromise apeared as a solution to the edm restricted homologation model wich did not have sas, but is way more agressive on the valves and turbo as the sas wich uses besides the combustion proces delayed in the manifold the chemical oxidation of nitrogen from the fresh air injected in the manifold.... short said les egt, better control, les stress on blades and turbo jurnals because of linear combustion as oposed to the pulses from the engine as exhaust valves open and tubo is ever slightly acelerated and decelerated because of this, and also by ignition cut and fact that evos use static ignition(only 2 cyl cut possible) as opossed to the to sequential ignition wich can do single cylinder cut every other 4 ...10 event... this is where the standalones come in to play... very complex strategies are beeing used to promote transient linear responce whic you only get with sas(of course you can have a bit of air passing by the throottle through the idle motor or a suplimentar solenoid -but only under certain cicumstances/strategy), never with jacked up throttle - is like a on/off engine (like a 250cc two stroke motocross engine)
sas is and has been used since the 80' starting with audi-toyota -mitsy -subaru-psa....
some pictures to see diffrent systems:
early audi to latest citroen

claudiumxg

more pictures

VGergo

iTrader: (3)

Great write up ! I think the same.. the stock sas system with some upgrade possible work . What the stock Ecu can't is the ignition cut but the -20 degree retard what the Evo 9 ecu can is enough ! Yes better to eliminate or mount reverse the bov. Only question is there any space for the air via the lines to the exhaust manifold for the air instead of the bov. And the stock vacum tank for the SAS valve is enough ?

claudiumxg

stock sas vacum tank is enough, you can always put 2 if necessary, stock sas is also enough for air to escape instead of bov if you drill bigger holes, and if you modify end of stock lines to fit vertical with simple goodrige inox fitings/comon home water heating apliances fitings bolted instead of banjo( an niple fitetd to manifold a nd a 90 degree fiting welded to end of lines or flared) like on evo 7 and late 6 pics (pic no 4 in first photos and 2 in later photos) you solve the problem

in the underneath photos -on the left evo 7 gr.a/wrc engine ,on the right evo 6 gr.a/erc engine- you can cleary see how the lines conect vertical to manifold for better flow

evoRS06

iTrader: (1)

With the setup I have there is no vacuum tank and it is operating just fine, a wrc sas system will be a lot more aggressive then what I have but with using factory bits and a little ecu manipulation the system works fantastic. I have some free time today so I will hook a boost gauge to the charge pipes and try to take some video of transiet response. I would really like to release how I have everything set up, but as stated in my earlier post I still need one table written for a little better control. Good write up by the way, lots of good info.

VGergo

iTrader: (3)

Excite with your video and what will the boost gauge show !
Coud you write more what did you set in the Ecu ? What periphery bit did you modify what is that "little ecu manipulation" ?
You connect your SAS valve across a solenoid to the intake manifold for vacum search ?

claudiumxg

of course you can use it without vacum tank but you wont be able to have complex strategies if you use oem sas valve(btw -even egr evos have vacum tank).
if you use only an air solenoid instead of sas valve you have to take care to use a one vay valve on the line so when exhaust pressure excedes inlet presure you dont get hot exaust gas to the valve.(oem valve has 2 components -one valve like a external wastegate and on the outlet it has a one way valve to prevent blow-by and induce a certain direction to gases)
ps. thanks for apreciations, nice to see people in the states rediscovering evo's primal purpose- rally /high engine responce / low end torque- what here in europe are enjoying for years
if needed i could post a few hints regarding control stategies and tables from what i use on standalones and what i've seen on top rally cars here(wrc/pwrc)
as i'm not very good with code writing (my profesional formation is medicine/surgeon but i drive rally cars and build them as a aditional business) it would be nice if someone could implement those strategies to oem ecu (althrough is almost 20 years old tech but we still haven't make use of it's full potential). a comercial /payed version of a rom and ecuflash with apropriate support and options would be even better

sas at work: enjoy!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFGrvMZoIek

Evoardo IX

iTrader: (21)

Hey claudiumxg can you help me I have an evo 9 RS with rom 88580014, I have all SAS hardware installed from factory but in ecuflash I can't change the SAS settings (they don't show) I tried editing the xml but it didn't work, can you please tell me exactly what I have to do/change/add to have the SAS available in ecuflash. Many thanks from a fellow evo maniac from Ecuador

claudiumxg

not all rom have routines for sas even if the car has the mechanical bits on it . not shure i can help too much as i stated before i'am not that good at rom dissasembly (as i don't have enough time to study it -i prefere standalones ) we have to see what the gurus find
ps. post you rom on geekmapped forum,as someone there could have right xml or a coresponding tephra rom for you, but you wont be able to controll it properly untill new tables will be added

Evoardo IX

iTrader: (21)

I will try geekmapped, thanks for the advice

Yeah I have been looking for the tables and all that, I really want to have at least a mild form of anti-lag. Hopefully someone here can help , thanks in advance

donner

iTrader: (1)

Add these to your 88580014.xml:

<table name="ALS minimum vehicle speed to trigger" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e12" type="1D" level="1" scaling="VehicleSpeed"/>

<table name="ALS minimum coolant temperature to trigger" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e14" type="1D" level="1" scaling="Temp"/>

<table name="ALS minimum RPM to trigger" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e16" type="1D" level="1" scaling="RPMStatLimit"/>

<table name="ALS minimum load to trigger" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e18" type="1D" level="1" scaling="Load16"/>

<table name="ALS minimum time to trigger" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e1a" type="1D" level="1" scaling="TimeSec"/>

<table name="ALS trigger valid time" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e1c" type="1D" level="1" scaling="TimeSec"/>

<table name="ALS Load below which active" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e1e" type="1D" level="1" scaling="Load16"/>

<table name="ALS active time limit" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e20" type="1D" level="1" scaling="TimeSec"/>

<table name="ALS Delay before air injection" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e22" type="1D" level="1" scaling="TimeSec"/>

<table name="ALS Delay before fuel injection" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e24" type="1D" level="1" scaling="TimeSec"/>

<table name="ALS Fuel injector time" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="1e26" type="1D" level="1" scaling="TimeSec"/>

<table name="ALS Air injection time" category="Turbo Anti-Lag" address="4e3a" type="2D" level="1" scaling="Timesecbyte">
<table name="RPM" address="7792" type="X Axis" elements="9" scaling="RPM"/>
</table>


And you also might need to add new scaling for example to your evo9base.xml (or what ever is called from your 88580014.xml):

<scaling name="Timesecbyte" units="s" toexpr="x/10" frexpr="x*10" format="%.1f" min="0" max="25.5" inc="1" storagetype="uint8" endian="big"/>

Evoardo IX

iTrader: (21)

Ok I just added to the xml, but in ecuflash the options are shown but greyed out ( I'm at developer level) is that normal?

Also, how do I know if I need new scalings? and which ones do I need?
Thanks a lot bro,
Ed