Locking the Ecu!
Feb 4, 2008, 11:31 PM
#16
So based on your sophisticated argument, it would also be wrong to reveal my alignment settings to another person, since that would be stealing from Robi who set them up? How about the secret of how to gap your spark plugs right? Is it okay for a shop to install a lock on my valve cover because they don't want me to tell people what setting the cam gears are at? It's unrealistic of any person who changes settings on my car (hard or soft) to claim they now can control what I do with my own property. It's my car, my ECU, and my map - I paid for it, I can do whatever I want with it.
I hate it when tuners hide their work and pretend that they have some uber secret sauce that they use when tuning. Tuning is easy. It is not rocket science or vodoo magic. To pretend that it is tells me that the tuner is insecure about what he does.
Feb 4, 2008, 11:36 PM
#17
May 6, 2008, 11:09 AM
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So based on your sophisticated argument, it would also be wrong to reveal my alignment settings to another person, since that would be stealing from Robi who set them up? How about the secret of how to gap your spark plugs right? Is it okay for a shop to install a lock on my valve cover because they don't want me to tell people what setting the cam gears are at? It's unrealistic of any person who changes settings on my car (hard or soft) to claim they now can control what I do with my own property. It's my car, my ECU, and my map - I paid for it, I can do whatever I want with it.
If any given tuner really wants to stop people from showing "his" map to other people, he would have to make the customer sign an "End User License Agreement" before installing the tune. Of course, this would make a lot of people say "no thanks", and it would be completely unenforceable because the tuner himself circumvented mitsu's safeguards by hacking the ECU in the first place. Impractical, and more than a little hypocritical.
I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but I don't see any valid argument for tuners complaining that their maps are being "ripped", as long as it happens with the consent of the person who owns the car. In this case, it sounds like the owners were not aware of what's going on though, so I commend him for wanting to protect his customers (if that is what he was trying to do ...). I don't think locking the ECU is the right way to do that though, simply letting his customers know about what's going on might be a more effective way to go.
John, Dwayne - thanks guys, it's cool ... we're all adults here
. It's an old debate and I know I probably won't convince anybody to change sides, I just wanted to point out a different perspective.
If any given tuner really wants to stop people from showing "his" map to other people, he would have to make the customer sign an "End User License Agreement" before installing the tune. Of course, this would make a lot of people say "no thanks", and it would be completely unenforceable because the tuner himself circumvented mitsu's safeguards by hacking the ECU in the first place. Impractical, and more than a little hypocritical.
I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but I don't see any valid argument for tuners complaining that their maps are being "ripped", as long as it happens with the consent of the person who owns the car. In this case, it sounds like the owners were not aware of what's going on though, so I commend him for wanting to protect his customers (if that is what he was trying to do ...). I don't think locking the ECU is the right way to do that though, simply letting his customers know about what's going on might be a more effective way to go.
John, Dwayne - thanks guys, it's cool ... we're all adults here
. It's an old debate and I know I probably won't convince anybody to change sides, I just wanted to point out a different perspective.
May 6, 2008, 11:47 AM
#21
You can always move the maps around in the ECU. That would confuse 99% of people. Anyone that could crack that would not need to pry into others' maps because they'd be cute enough themselves Change the original fuel map to a rude word or two painted with colors 
Change the original fuel map to a rude word or two painted with colors
May 6, 2008, 04:47 PM
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i am all for not letting other tuners steal other peoples hard work...but if i want to be able to get in to my ecu after the car is tuned..
i should have that option
i should have that option
Jul 28, 2008, 07:19 AM
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you hit the nail on the head...Junior showed me what he was doing...explained why...
I have a more aggressive set up and have yet to get a CEL...when before I was constantly getting them.
Scaling the MAF sensor correctly... I think is the key to having a good tune..and it takes time..
Oh and fyi my ECU was not "locked" but my ECU ID was changed by the previous "tuner"so my laptop would not recognize the ROM.
But I figured out how to change that and had access to the map...but I won't comment on the tune.
I have a more aggressive set up and have yet to get a CEL...when before I was constantly getting them.
Scaling the MAF sensor correctly... I think is the key to having a good tune..and it takes time..
Oh and fyi my ECU was not "locked" but my ECU ID was changed by the previous "tuner"so my laptop would not recognize the ROM.
But I figured out how to change that and had access to the map...but I won't comment on the tune.
Last edited by gamebred26; Jul 28, 2008 at 07:21 AM.
Jul 29, 2008, 05:21 PM
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This thread could get really out of hand...
Tuners think they own the map, customer think they own the map. I am a tuner but I believe that if a map is to be locked it should be explained BEFORE the tuning takes place and not as a surprise after. If a map is to be taken out of a car, the tuner should ask the customer. There should be an open communication between the two parties before any work is done. BTW, I am not a fan of locking an ECU.
Is there any protection for a tuner? Hypothetically: Tuner sets up a car and it is running perfectly. The owner pulls the map and thinks he can do better (very common judging by the people on EvoM) and adds some extra timing and leans things out a little. Motor goes bang. Trying to cover his tracks the owner loads back in the original map from the tuner, then goes back to the tuner asking for a new motor.
The only time I would think about locking an ECU is if we built a fresh motor and we dont want the customer to abuse it before run-in, and we know the customer is what we call a "thrasher", meaning he abuses the crap out of his cars. Would you consider that fair if we decide to protect our supplied warrantee?
Tuners think they own the map, customer think they own the map. I am a tuner but I believe that if a map is to be locked it should be explained BEFORE the tuning takes place and not as a surprise after. If a map is to be taken out of a car, the tuner should ask the customer. There should be an open communication between the two parties before any work is done. BTW, I am not a fan of locking an ECU.
Is there any protection for a tuner? Hypothetically: Tuner sets up a car and it is running perfectly. The owner pulls the map and thinks he can do better (very common judging by the people on EvoM) and adds some extra timing and leans things out a little. Motor goes bang. Trying to cover his tracks the owner loads back in the original map from the tuner, then goes back to the tuner asking for a new motor.
The only time I would think about locking an ECU is if we built a fresh motor and we dont want the customer to abuse it before run-in, and we know the customer is what we call a "thrasher", meaning he abuses the crap out of his cars. Would you consider that fair if we decide to protect our supplied warrantee?
Jul 30, 2008, 06:07 AM
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I don't know of any tuner replacing a motor cause someone blew it up and said it was due to a faulty tune.
Yes if you are going to change a customers ECU ID so he can not get in to the map....inform him so. So he can then decide whether he wants to continue with you.
For a long time most people had no clue this was even taking place.
Ok it is my ECU in my car which I paid for. It is also a service which I pay for.
If you can't even see what it is they did in there, how do you know you even got what you paid for ...A TUNE.
Most don't understand you can take a car , make a WOT pull on the dyno that makes great numbers and still have a "bad tune".
Yes if you are going to change a customers ECU ID so he can not get in to the map....inform him so. So he can then decide whether he wants to continue with you.
For a long time most people had no clue this was even taking place.
Ok it is my ECU in my car which I paid for. It is also a service which I pay for.
If you can't even see what it is they did in there, how do you know you even got what you paid for ...A TUNE.
Most don't understand you can take a car , make a WOT pull on the dyno that makes great numbers and still have a "bad tune".
Jul 30, 2008, 06:40 AM
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I said hypothetically. Strange things happen in this industry, and not all people are educated or as polite.
What you have to remember is that it is the service that you pay for, not the right to universal access to the code. It is the same principal as music. If you make a song that everyone loves, then suddenly everyone is copying it and where you should be earning from your knowledge, others are either getting it for free or worse yet they are the ones making the money. Just because it is on your ipod doesnt mean you own the rights to the song.
Think of things another way. Say we could not reflash the OEM ECU and all you could do was run an aftermarket system and the difficult job of making idle control, boost control, cold starting, closed loop fuel, etc... all work correctly has not been done by anyone yet. Now what if you were the only tuner anywhere that could make everything work perfectly. All of the rest think they can do it but they cant. Dont you think the good tuner would want to protect his knowledge in some way to prevent other tuners from learning? Business is business.
Now move to re-flashing. What if a paid pro tuner can fix everything. No throttle hang, perfect boost control, perfect cold starts, no false knocks... everything is fixed. Dont you think he too would try to protect his work?
This is a big can of worms, and there is no correct answer. The point of what I am trying to write here is that there are two sides to it. Both need to feel safe and protected in the end. Maybe the best solution is to explain to the customer that the tuner is locking the map, but should the custmomer want the lock removed they will loose rights to the tune and the pre-tune file will be loaded back in. Customer or tuner , chicken or the egg?
What you have to remember is that it is the service that you pay for, not the right to universal access to the code. It is the same principal as music. If you make a song that everyone loves, then suddenly everyone is copying it and where you should be earning from your knowledge, others are either getting it for free or worse yet they are the ones making the money. Just because it is on your ipod doesnt mean you own the rights to the song.
Think of things another way. Say we could not reflash the OEM ECU and all you could do was run an aftermarket system and the difficult job of making idle control, boost control, cold starting, closed loop fuel, etc... all work correctly has not been done by anyone yet. Now what if you were the only tuner anywhere that could make everything work perfectly. All of the rest think they can do it but they cant. Dont you think the good tuner would want to protect his knowledge in some way to prevent other tuners from learning? Business is business.
Now move to re-flashing. What if a paid pro tuner can fix everything. No throttle hang, perfect boost control, perfect cold starts, no false knocks... everything is fixed. Dont you think he too would try to protect his work?
This is a big can of worms, and there is no correct answer. The point of what I am trying to write here is that there are two sides to it. Both need to feel safe and protected in the end. Maybe the best solution is to explain to the customer that the tuner is locking the map, but should the custmomer want the lock removed they will loose rights to the tune and the pre-tune file will be loaded back in. Customer or tuner , chicken or the egg?
Jul 30, 2008, 07:22 AM
#29
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protecting your work is one aspect...hiding your shortcomings is another.
anyone can call themselves a pro tuner or a great tuner with nothing to back it up if the maps are hidden.
if i am uneducated on what it is you are doing , how do i know if you are even good at it?
most people are just taking their "tuners" word for it.
now if you hide what you did i am even less likely to know if what you did was worth PAYING for or "good".
if you are so good at what you do..you should not have anything to hide.
and if tuning is so hard and complex then why worry about someone learning from what you did? or stealing it.
anyone can throw in a base map clean up your a/f under high load and hit you over the head for $350.
then when you get CEL codes...and ****ty idle...the car stalling out..say "owe it's the cams...or the stock ECU can't handle your mods"
I have heard this before from a "great tuner" and believed it...till I got a REAL tune..from Junior.
anyone can call themselves a pro tuner or a great tuner with nothing to back it up if the maps are hidden.
if i am uneducated on what it is you are doing , how do i know if you are even good at it?
most people are just taking their "tuners" word for it.
now if you hide what you did i am even less likely to know if what you did was worth PAYING for or "good".
if you are so good at what you do..you should not have anything to hide.
and if tuning is so hard and complex then why worry about someone learning from what you did? or stealing it.
anyone can throw in a base map clean up your a/f under high load and hit you over the head for $350.
then when you get CEL codes...and ****ty idle...the car stalling out..say "owe it's the cams...or the stock ECU can't handle your mods"
I have heard this before from a "great tuner" and believed it...till I got a REAL tune..from Junior.
Last edited by gamebred26; Jul 30, 2008 at 07:28 AM.
Jul 30, 2008, 08:06 AM
#30
I see it both ways and have had problems in the past with one guy even saying he represented me. His Evo is now apart so I guess Karma got him in the end.
However--
Locking someone's ECU without telling them is not cool. Locking it because you dont want it changed is another. Someone can always log the tune whether its logged or not and see if there are any "shortcomings". Getting CEL make it very obvious as well.
Like Matt said if someone toasted a motor because they changed the map, then reloaded the old one (if they were smart enough to save it) and think that somehow it was the tuners fault does happen. People throw blame all around because they cant accept they suck or they dont have the money or dont want to spend the money "So lets make someone else pay for it".
As long as the tuner is up front and says I am going to lock your ECU, I do this to everyone and these are the reasons, the customer still has the choice to walk back out the door.
I do not lock my maps
I have never had enough reason to do so other than the one or 2 guys that thought they could make money off me. It knocked on the other car and the guy came to me wanting ME to fix it.
However--
Locking someone's ECU without telling them is not cool. Locking it because you dont want it changed is another. Someone can always log the tune whether its logged or not and see if there are any "shortcomings". Getting CEL make it very obvious as well.
Like Matt said if someone toasted a motor because they changed the map, then reloaded the old one (if they were smart enough to save it) and think that somehow it was the tuners fault does happen. People throw blame all around because they cant accept they suck or they dont have the money or dont want to spend the money "So lets make someone else pay for it".
As long as the tuner is up front and says I am going to lock your ECU, I do this to everyone and these are the reasons, the customer still has the choice to walk back out the door.
I do not lock my maps
I have never had enough reason to do so other than the one or 2 guys that thought they could make money off me. It knocked on the other car and the guy came to me wanting ME to fix it.