How do you run 24.5psi on 91 oct???
Feb 29, 2008, 12:54 PM
#61
Going over some logs trying to figure out what the comparison for boost to timing is at any given RPM I came up with that at the boost levels I am now running on pump I am down about 25%. The timing I run on C16 is about 10* at 32psi +/- at peak torque and 20 by redline at 26psi.
More or less this puts me down about 10* of timing and 2-3psi across the board. My load values will range from 301 at 28.8psi on pump to 330ish at 31 on race so I think most of the load difference is boost and not so much timing as I have been thinking recently.
One other thing I have decided is that the ECU doesnt seem to react quite fast enough. If I go from lessay 4k in 4thand pull through 29psi (current setting at 0*) there will be no knock. Repeat the pull at 3300 in 4th and it will knock at 23-25psi and then kill the run with 5-6 counts that just dont want to go away. Kind of like walking on a knifes edge it seems. Some of it might be the MIVEC being advanced to 28.8* at 3k and not 4k, my dynamic advance table having some extra timing in it, or some other quirk. I am going to steadily remove probable causes and see if it gets any better or not.
One very important thing to keep in mind is that if your car doesnt have alot of mods that are going to help the VE (how easily it breathes) chances are you will hit the point of no gain sooner than someone who has things that are going to improve. Cams, intercooler, possibly head work, tubular header, Intake manifold, etc. are all going to be mods that help the engine breathe better both on the intake and exhaust side.
I think there is still more in my setup before I switch to meth and start the process all over again (HIGH boost, and let the timing be where it is). The S2's will be in next week and I am going to look for a Magnus Street Manifold possibly as the next phase. We'll see what craziness can happen I guess.
JB
More or less this puts me down about 10* of timing and 2-3psi across the board. My load values will range from 301 at 28.8psi on pump to 330ish at 31 on race so I think most of the load difference is boost and not so much timing as I have been thinking recently.
One other thing I have decided is that the ECU doesnt seem to react quite fast enough. If I go from lessay 4k in 4thand pull through 29psi (current setting at 0*) there will be no knock. Repeat the pull at 3300 in 4th and it will knock at 23-25psi and then kill the run with 5-6 counts that just dont want to go away. Kind of like walking on a knifes edge it seems. Some of it might be the MIVEC being advanced to 28.8* at 3k and not 4k, my dynamic advance table having some extra timing in it, or some other quirk. I am going to steadily remove probable causes and see if it gets any better or not.
One very important thing to keep in mind is that if your car doesnt have alot of mods that are going to help the VE (how easily it breathes) chances are you will hit the point of no gain sooner than someone who has things that are going to improve. Cams, intercooler, possibly head work, tubular header, Intake manifold, etc. are all going to be mods that help the engine breathe better both on the intake and exhaust side.
I think there is still more in my setup before I switch to meth and start the process all over again (HIGH boost, and let the timing be where it is). The S2's will be in next week and I am going to look for a Magnus Street Manifold possibly as the next phase. We'll see what craziness can happen I guess.
JB
Mar 9, 2008, 09:02 PM
#62
Hi JB,
Let me know how the S2s perform on your setup! Very curious!
Let me know how the S2s perform on your setup! Very curious!
Going over some logs trying to figure out what the comparison for boost to timing is at any given RPM I came up with that at the boost levels I am now running on pump I am down about 25%. The timing I run on C16 is about 10* at 32psi +/- at peak torque and 20 by redline at 26psi.
More or less this puts me down about 10* of timing and 2-3psi across the board. My load values will range from 301 at 28.8psi on pump to 330ish at 31 on race so I think most of the load difference is boost and not so much timing as I have been thinking recently.
One other thing I have decided is that the ECU doesnt seem to react quite fast enough. If I go from lessay 4k in 4thand pull through 29psi (current setting at 0*) there will be no knock. Repeat the pull at 3300 in 4th and it will knock at 23-25psi and then kill the run with 5-6 counts that just dont want to go away. Kind of like walking on a knifes edge it seems. Some of it might be the MIVEC being advanced to 28.8* at 3k and not 4k, my dynamic advance table having some extra timing in it, or some other quirk. I am going to steadily remove probable causes and see if it gets any better or not.
One very important thing to keep in mind is that if your car doesnt have alot of mods that are going to help the VE (how easily it breathes) chances are you will hit the point of no gain sooner than someone who has things that are going to improve. Cams, intercooler, possibly head work, tubular header, Intake manifold, etc. are all going to be mods that help the engine breathe better both on the intake and exhaust side.
I think there is still more in my setup before I switch to meth and start the process all over again (HIGH boost, and let the timing be where it is). The S2's will be in next week and I am going to look for a Magnus Street Manifold possibly as the next phase. We'll see what craziness can happen I guess.
JB
More or less this puts me down about 10* of timing and 2-3psi across the board. My load values will range from 301 at 28.8psi on pump to 330ish at 31 on race so I think most of the load difference is boost and not so much timing as I have been thinking recently.
One other thing I have decided is that the ECU doesnt seem to react quite fast enough. If I go from lessay 4k in 4thand pull through 29psi (current setting at 0*) there will be no knock. Repeat the pull at 3300 in 4th and it will knock at 23-25psi and then kill the run with 5-6 counts that just dont want to go away. Kind of like walking on a knifes edge it seems. Some of it might be the MIVEC being advanced to 28.8* at 3k and not 4k, my dynamic advance table having some extra timing in it, or some other quirk. I am going to steadily remove probable causes and see if it gets any better or not.
One very important thing to keep in mind is that if your car doesnt have alot of mods that are going to help the VE (how easily it breathes) chances are you will hit the point of no gain sooner than someone who has things that are going to improve. Cams, intercooler, possibly head work, tubular header, Intake manifold, etc. are all going to be mods that help the engine breathe better both on the intake and exhaust side.
I think there is still more in my setup before I switch to meth and start the process all over again (HIGH boost, and let the timing be where it is). The S2's will be in next week and I am going to look for a Magnus Street Manifold possibly as the next phase. We'll see what craziness can happen I guess.
JB
Mar 10, 2008, 06:57 AM
#63
Account Disabled
ya I had to adjust my "aggessive" MIVEC in the high RPM 6k-8k range because I got knock during different start of the runs like how you experienced, I actually cant even get stock timing uptop, im down 1-2* below stock with 25psi peak,21 redline. where else I had to reduce 3-4* below stock if I stuck with the aggressive MIVEC.I dont have cams so maybe that is what I need to do along with the LICP. im on 92 octane gas by the way.
Going over some logs trying to figure out what the comparison for boost to timing is at any given RPM I came up with that at the boost levels I am now running on pump I am down about 25%. The timing I run on C16 is about 10* at 32psi +/- at peak torque and 20 by redline at 26psi.
More or less this puts me down about 10* of timing and 2-3psi across the board. My load values will range from 301 at 28.8psi on pump to 330ish at 31 on race so I think most of the load difference is boost and not so much timing as I have been thinking recently.
One other thing I have decided is that the ECU doesnt seem to react quite fast enough. If I go from lessay 4k in 4thand pull through 29psi (current setting at 0*) there will be no knock. Repeat the pull at 3300 in 4th and it will knock at 23-25psi and then kill the run with 5-6 counts that just dont want to go away. Kind of like walking on a knifes edge it seems. Some of it might be the MIVEC being advanced to 28.8* at 3k and not 4k, my dynamic advance table having some extra timing in it, or some other quirk. I am going to steadily remove probable causes and see if it gets any better or not.
One very important thing to keep in mind is that if your car doesnt have alot of mods that are going to help the VE (how easily it breathes) chances are you will hit the point of no gain sooner than someone who has things that are going to improve. Cams, intercooler, possibly head work, tubular header, Intake manifold, etc. are all going to be mods that help the engine breathe better both on the intake and exhaust side.
I think there is still more in my setup before I switch to meth and start the process all over again (HIGH boost, and let the timing be where it is). The S2's will be in next week and I am going to look for a Magnus Street Manifold possibly as the next phase. We'll see what craziness can happen I guess.
JB
More or less this puts me down about 10* of timing and 2-3psi across the board. My load values will range from 301 at 28.8psi on pump to 330ish at 31 on race so I think most of the load difference is boost and not so much timing as I have been thinking recently.
One other thing I have decided is that the ECU doesnt seem to react quite fast enough. If I go from lessay 4k in 4thand pull through 29psi (current setting at 0*) there will be no knock. Repeat the pull at 3300 in 4th and it will knock at 23-25psi and then kill the run with 5-6 counts that just dont want to go away. Kind of like walking on a knifes edge it seems. Some of it might be the MIVEC being advanced to 28.8* at 3k and not 4k, my dynamic advance table having some extra timing in it, or some other quirk. I am going to steadily remove probable causes and see if it gets any better or not.
One very important thing to keep in mind is that if your car doesnt have alot of mods that are going to help the VE (how easily it breathes) chances are you will hit the point of no gain sooner than someone who has things that are going to improve. Cams, intercooler, possibly head work, tubular header, Intake manifold, etc. are all going to be mods that help the engine breathe better both on the intake and exhaust side.
I think there is still more in my setup before I switch to meth and start the process all over again (HIGH boost, and let the timing be where it is). The S2's will be in next week and I am going to look for a Magnus Street Manifold possibly as the next phase. We'll see what craziness can happen I guess.
JB
Mar 12, 2008, 09:21 AM
#64
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I was reading through this thread again, and now have this question.
On a IX turbo, at what psi/flow numbers is the turbo at the limit of it's efficiency range?
Mar 12, 2008, 02:32 PM
#66
I am not sure, I know its pretty easy to run 39 lbs on less boost that 27 though. Its maximum rating seems to vary depending on who you talk to from 42 to 44 lbs/min. I typically see 39/40 from most of the IX's I do though on a stock turbo without cams. I have seen a few more than that to be sure. I am referring to the load conversion formula of course for where these numbers are coming from. My personal car (Green, I know)runs in the 42-43 range with occasional blips into the 44lb the way it is setup now.
I wonder how much mods that improve VE are affecting the amount of airflow though? I can watch a log and see how timing and fuel will affect load (therefore power) and since we are using Hz to calculate lbs/min I would assume the other mods that should have direct bearing (Header, intake, intake manifold, etc.) are allowing more in and altering that reading. I guess I am taking the long way of saying this, but, it could very well be that the turbo is flowing the same amount and just more is getting into the motor.
JB
I wonder how much mods that improve VE are affecting the amount of airflow though? I can watch a log and see how timing and fuel will affect load (therefore power) and since we are using Hz to calculate lbs/min I would assume the other mods that should have direct bearing (Header, intake, intake manifold, etc.) are allowing more in and altering that reading. I guess I am taking the long way of saying this, but, it could very well be that the turbo is flowing the same amount and just more is getting into the motor.
JB
Mar 12, 2008, 02:42 PM
#67
Something I noticed when I got bored last night and started looking is; My map for 29psi (ish) uses the timing numbers for a stock IX in the same load cells from 6k up. I am only advanced 2-3* more from 5750 and down. Question then is what turbo was Mitsu using when they figured that those where the limits? Cause man I gotta tell you it was spot on for my combo as it sits right now.
JB
JB
Or, is it possible the Mitsu engineers made the stock tune safe enough for the turbo to run un-restricted for a short period of time? example: vacuum hose off of wastegate.
Last edited by Mr. Evo IX; Mar 12, 2008 at 05:44 PM.
Mar 12, 2008, 07:02 PM
#68
Yes and no. It is the right combo for cams and a Green with a FMIC. A stocker would never be able to hold those load cells all the way to redline, though at about 6k to 6500 it might overlap.
I think you are spot on about the WG losing a vaccum line and causing some drastic overboost so they left the safety net in there just in case.
I think you are spot on about the WG losing a vaccum line and causing some drastic overboost so they left the safety net in there just in case.
Mar 20, 2008, 06:43 AM
#69
Timing is irrelevant to a point. After reading what Mark Shead had to say in the Magnus intake manifold thread (before it disappeared), I decided to go out and try running as much boost on pump without knock as possible. I also log WHP as a function of load so I can quantify changes.
Best with 25-22psi and timing ranging from 2-3* to 14* by redline was 375whp
Best with 28.9 tapering to 25 and timing going from 0* to 9* was 405whp. I dont have an EGT probe, but there was also no knock. I have one log from testing running that level of boost but there was some knock but not till it tapered to almost 23 (that was just a simple miscalculation).
cliffs- drop timing, keep AFR's where you want them, raise boost...profit?
Best with 25-22psi and timing ranging from 2-3* to 14* by redline was 375whp
Best with 28.9 tapering to 25 and timing going from 0* to 9* was 405whp. I dont have an EGT probe, but there was also no knock. I have one log from testing running that level of boost but there was some knock but not till it tapered to almost 23 (that was just a simple miscalculation).
cliffs- drop timing, keep AFR's where you want them, raise boost...profit?
I was interested by all the new threads on running big boost on XXXoctane so I went out yesterday in 80 degree weather and made some pulls.... well crap....
At 29psi, tapering to 20 by 7K (MBC) and 12:1 AFR, -1 degree peak timing I get 0-2 counts. Now this was a bit edgey because I did like 8-9 back to back runs and some would come out clean and others would come out with a mess of knock. Strange thing is that my octane number never decreased on those pulls. My octane number always decreases if I get knock at 5-6 counts going through the gears, even if its not at WOT. That was odd. Car was very powerful. I don't know why I ever stopped at 25. I'm going to keep it at 29 for roadracing, but I've already made my alternate map drop to 11.25ish rather than 12 for consistancy's sake. I'm able to run much more boost with cam gear settings -4/-1 than I was before on my +2/+1 (which gave rediculous gobs of torque at peak boost). I'm very happy. lol... not so happy that I burned through a quarter tank in 20 miles though.
-93 octane (10%ethanol according to pump) BP gas
-I use windshield wiper fluid injection (strange to say, but honestly that's what I use)
-Full list of mods can be found on website in sig.
Mar 20, 2008, 07:26 AM
#70
Hi JB,
Were those timing numbers are for 91 OCT?
If they are, I may need a bigger/better I/C! I can not run more than 10* (consistently) up top @ 22-23 PSI on 93OCT. Also, I am running the same peak TQ timing @ 2-3*. It will be nice if I can reach 4-5* at peak TQ and 14* at redline. Pretty sure will gain 20WHP easy!
I just got a BR Race FMIC and will be looking at the impact on timing with same boost levels!
BTW... did you got the S2s? LMK! Inerested in the results!
Were those timing numbers are for 91 OCT?
If they are, I may need a bigger/better I/C! I can not run more than 10* (consistently) up top @ 22-23 PSI on 93OCT. Also, I am running the same peak TQ timing @ 2-3*. It will be nice if I can reach 4-5* at peak TQ and 14* at redline. Pretty sure will gain 20WHP easy!
I just got a BR Race FMIC and will be looking at the impact on timing with same boost levels!
BTW... did you got the S2s? LMK! Inerested in the results!
Timing is irrelevant to a point. After reading what Mark Shead had to say in the Magnus intake manifold thread (before it disappeared), I decided to go out and try running as much boost on pump without knock as possible. I also log WHP as a function of load so I can quantify changes.
Best with 25-22psi and timing ranging from 2-3* to 14* by redline was 375whp
Best with 28.9 tapering to 25 and timing going from 0* to 9* was 405whp. I dont have an EGT probe, but there was also no knock. I have one log from testing running that level of boost but there was some knock but not till it tapered to almost 23 (that was just a simple miscalculation).
cliffs- drop timing, keep AFR's where you want them, raise boost...profit?
Best with 25-22psi and timing ranging from 2-3* to 14* by redline was 375whp
Best with 28.9 tapering to 25 and timing going from 0* to 9* was 405whp. I dont have an EGT probe, but there was also no knock. I have one log from testing running that level of boost but there was some knock but not till it tapered to almost 23 (that was just a simple miscalculation).
cliffs- drop timing, keep AFR's where you want them, raise boost...profit?
Mar 20, 2008, 11:25 AM
#71
I was interested by all the new threads on running big boost on XXXoctane so I went out yesterday in 80 degree weather and made some pulls.... well crap....
At 29psi, tapering to 20 by 7K (MBC) and 12:1 AFR, -1 degree peak timing I get 0-2 counts. Now this was a bit edgey because I did like 8-9 back to back runs and some would come out clean and others would come out with a mess of knock. Strange thing is that my octane number never decreased on those pulls. My octane number always decreases if I get knock at 5-6 counts going through the gears, even if its not at WOT. That was odd. Car was very powerful. I don't know why I ever stopped at 25. I'm going to keep it at 29 for roadracing, but I've already made my alternate map drop to 11.25ish rather than 12 for consistancy's sake. I'm able to run much more boost with cam gear settings -4/-1 than I was before on my +2/+1 (which gave rediculous gobs of torque at peak boost). I'm very happy. lol... not so happy that I burned through a quarter tank in 20 miles though.
-93 octane (10%ethanol according to pump) BP gas
-I use windshield wiper fluid injection (strange to say, but honestly that's what I use)
-Full list of mods can be found on website in sig.
At 29psi, tapering to 20 by 7K (MBC) and 12:1 AFR, -1 degree peak timing I get 0-2 counts. Now this was a bit edgey because I did like 8-9 back to back runs and some would come out clean and others would come out with a mess of knock. Strange thing is that my octane number never decreased on those pulls. My octane number always decreases if I get knock at 5-6 counts going through the gears, even if its not at WOT. That was odd. Car was very powerful. I don't know why I ever stopped at 25. I'm going to keep it at 29 for roadracing, but I've already made my alternate map drop to 11.25ish rather than 12 for consistancy's sake. I'm able to run much more boost with cam gear settings -4/-1 than I was before on my +2/+1 (which gave rediculous gobs of torque at peak boost). I'm very happy. lol... not so happy that I burned through a quarter tank in 20 miles though.
-93 octane (10%ethanol according to pump) BP gas
-I use windshield wiper fluid injection (strange to say, but honestly that's what I use)
-Full list of mods can be found on website in sig.
I think it's cool you are sharing info, unfortunatly I think people get confused with mixing posts like this, espically when you don't mention Alky injection till later in your post, and in not the most straightforward way.
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