Another shot at a system
Sep 24, 2010, 02:17 PM
#1
Another shot at a system
Objective - Maximum impact for minimal weight, low distortion and large-scale dynamics while the car is moving. Semi-stealth install.
Desired (subjective) sound quality - an automotive equivalent of a Klipschhorn driven by a good amp and an analog front end. Again, while the car is moving
The gear:
Alpine 9887/6-disc changer to sit in the trunk
Arc Audio 4050 amplifier - 2 channels driving the fronts, 2 channels bridged for the sub
Earthquake SWS-8X driver in a .2ft3 poly-stuffed sealed box under the driver's seat
Speakers - BA Pro60. No rear fill. (replaced by the stock speakers as the install evolved)
Weight:
Woofer + enclosure - ~5.5lbs (!)
Amplifier - 8lbs
Enclosure specs - 3 5/8"H, 8 3/8"W, 15.75"D. 1/4" MDF construction. Top, bottom and 8" sides carpeted, 15" sides painted black for a better fit. I may need a shoehorn for this. As mentioned later in the thread, this enclosure did not fit!
These enclosure specs do fit: 3" H, 8.5" W, 16" D. The enclosure will need a ring on top to clear the driver. The bottom of the box was not carpeted. That's how tight it is.
The system will be installed and tuned during the course of the following week. I'm reserving the next couple of posts for install pics and listening impressions. This way, we can keep everything together at the top of the thread.
Last edited by FJF; Dec 28, 2010 at 09:38 PM.
Sep 24, 2010, 02:17 PM
#2
The enclosure stuffed with fluffed-up poly, wired, and the driver installed. Technically speaking this is a woofer, not a subwoofer, as it has no hope of reaching below 40Hz with any kind of significance. For our intents and purposes, though, we'll still refer to it as a sub. The install should be finished Friday and I'll post more pics then.
Last edited by FJF; Sep 28, 2010 at 05:57 PM.
Sep 24, 2010, 02:18 PM
#3
The speakers
Today I'm going to reinstall the stock speakers and remove the BA Pro60s. I had a feeling this wasn't going to work out, as I've done this before, but had to know once and for all. I'm not even going to concern myself with replacing the stock speakers, unless an applicable candidate has the sensitivity and the dynamics needed for this car. To be clear, this isn't about sonic quality, though having some would be nice. This is about being able to hear a recoding clearly while our cars are moving. Not standing still. Moving.
Some may be familiar with the UK audio manufacturer, Linn. ~40 years ago, Linn introduced its LP12 turntable. Linn argued that the source was the most important component, followed by the amplifier, with the speakers being last in line. Just as most folks in consumer audio today believe that the speakers are responsible for the bulk of the sound quality, the same was true 40 years ago. Linn held a number of demonstrations, showing the difference between the two concepts while the listeners faced a curtain. Slowly, but surely, the audio world began to recognize the significance of the idea. The very best systems available (not car audio) are assembled with a similar notion in mind.
This bring us back to the stock speakers. I mentioned the above, because one can't really achieve a similar level of performance without a well-developed front end (and of course [non-compressed] source material) and a good amplifier. Reading the posts on the board, I feel like many have heard the factory speakers driven by the OEM deck, which really is terrible-sounding, or with lackluster source components/material.
There are two ways of looking at speakers. A speaker can be seen as a transducer (which it is) playing back what's been fed into it, or it can be seen as the ultimate determinate of sound quality, coloring whatever signal is tries to reproduce. Really, both constraints always exists, albeit in varying proportions. In a home High-End system, where the purity of the signal is painstakingly preserved at every step of the way, the former takes precedence. In a mobile Bose system, it's the colorations and the distortion that determine the sonic outcome.
Addendum: after more driving and thinking about this, I've decided to keep the BAs in the car for a while longer. I'd like to try a couple of different tuning approaches, as long as I have them already installed. I can only say that if one is thinking of upgrading the system, consider changing the speakers last, if ever.
The woofer:
I've tried the woofer-in-cabin approach before with .3 and a .5ft2 enclosures and a variety of 8" drivers. At one time I considered installing a sub in the corner next to the console on the passenger side, and it still doesn't seem like such a bad idea. First, let me explain the tuning philosophy. In car audio terms, it's all midbass. In audiophile terms, it's all upper bass. I'm not even trying to reproduce anything below ~80Hz with any kind of authority. With this woofer, I'm looking for definition and bass queues. If you listen to bass, I mean as a part of a musical performance, you'll notice that the bass that is felt though the body is not what defines its individual notes. Those queues happen higher in the spectrum. I'm trying to produce the illusion of a full-range system by highlighting those factors.
A part of the problem with this is the localization of the woofer. By playing upper bass, it's easy to note the physical location of the driver that comes across as a secondary, low-level, full-range speaker. Not good. This is why I was interested in trying the underseat option, figuring that the location would be masked by having a mid not 2 feet away. Well, I'm happy to say that it works, as long as you don't expect to feel bass rattling the platinum grillz on your teeth. The woofer does have good punch - you can feel it hit your chest and back (a little) - and the notes are well-defined. There's also no audible mechanical noise coming from this driver. It's encouraging.
There's still some tuning to be done and I'll report back.
BTW, the system added just a touch less than 20lbs to the car including wire. If, or when, the stock speakers go back in, we'll be at ~16lbs net.
The stock speakers are back in. With their prodigious midbass capabilities in mind, I x-over the sub lower, ~85Hz. Impressive performance for such a tiny box. There's enough actual bass to be very satisfying. Unless you're expecting to be lifted out of your seat by the modulation of the waves, the sub's in-cabin response is comparable to a much larger driver living in the trunk, but without the drawbacks. Granted, I don't play the thing until it cries a song of death, but there's no mechanical noise, either. The sub virtually disappears.
Today I'm going to reinstall the stock speakers and remove the BA Pro60s. I had a feeling this wasn't going to work out, as I've done this before, but had to know once and for all. I'm not even going to concern myself with replacing the stock speakers, unless an applicable candidate has the sensitivity and the dynamics needed for this car. To be clear, this isn't about sonic quality, though having some would be nice. This is about being able to hear a recoding clearly while our cars are moving. Not standing still. Moving.
Some may be familiar with the UK audio manufacturer, Linn. ~40 years ago, Linn introduced its LP12 turntable. Linn argued that the source was the most important component, followed by the amplifier, with the speakers being last in line. Just as most folks in consumer audio today believe that the speakers are responsible for the bulk of the sound quality, the same was true 40 years ago. Linn held a number of demonstrations, showing the difference between the two concepts while the listeners faced a curtain. Slowly, but surely, the audio world began to recognize the significance of the idea. The very best systems available (not car audio) are assembled with a similar notion in mind.
This bring us back to the stock speakers. I mentioned the above, because one can't really achieve a similar level of performance without a well-developed front end (and of course [non-compressed] source material) and a good amplifier. Reading the posts on the board, I feel like many have heard the factory speakers driven by the OEM deck, which really is terrible-sounding, or with lackluster source components/material.
There are two ways of looking at speakers. A speaker can be seen as a transducer (which it is) playing back what's been fed into it, or it can be seen as the ultimate determinate of sound quality, coloring whatever signal is tries to reproduce. Really, both constraints always exists, albeit in varying proportions. In a home High-End system, where the purity of the signal is painstakingly preserved at every step of the way, the former takes precedence. In a mobile Bose system, it's the colorations and the distortion that determine the sonic outcome.
Addendum: after more driving and thinking about this, I've decided to keep the BAs in the car for a while longer. I'd like to try a couple of different tuning approaches, as long as I have them already installed. I can only say that if one is thinking of upgrading the system, consider changing the speakers last, if ever.
The woofer:
I've tried the woofer-in-cabin approach before with .3 and a .5ft2 enclosures and a variety of 8" drivers. At one time I considered installing a sub in the corner next to the console on the passenger side, and it still doesn't seem like such a bad idea. First, let me explain the tuning philosophy. In car audio terms, it's all midbass. In audiophile terms, it's all upper bass. I'm not even trying to reproduce anything below ~80Hz with any kind of authority. With this woofer, I'm looking for definition and bass queues. If you listen to bass, I mean as a part of a musical performance, you'll notice that the bass that is felt though the body is not what defines its individual notes. Those queues happen higher in the spectrum. I'm trying to produce the illusion of a full-range system by highlighting those factors.
A part of the problem with this is the localization of the woofer. By playing upper bass, it's easy to note the physical location of the driver that comes across as a secondary, low-level, full-range speaker. Not good. This is why I was interested in trying the underseat option, figuring that the location would be masked by having a mid not 2 feet away. Well, I'm happy to say that it works, as long as you don't expect to feel bass rattling the platinum grillz on your teeth. The woofer does have good punch - you can feel it hit your chest and back (a little) - and the notes are well-defined. There's also no audible mechanical noise coming from this driver. It's encouraging.
There's still some tuning to be done and I'll report back.
BTW, the system added just a touch less than 20lbs to the car including wire. If, or when, the stock speakers go back in, we'll be at ~16lbs net.
The stock speakers are back in. With their prodigious midbass capabilities in mind, I x-over the sub lower, ~85Hz. Impressive performance for such a tiny box. There's enough actual bass to be very satisfying. Unless you're expecting to be lifted out of your seat by the modulation of the waves, the sub's in-cabin response is comparable to a much larger driver living in the trunk, but without the drawbacks. Granted, I don't play the thing until it cries a song of death, but there's no mechanical noise, either. The sub virtually disappears.
Last edited by FJF; Dec 12, 2010 at 10:52 AM.
Sep 24, 2010, 02:48 PM
#5
I doubt it. We'll how much space remains after it's installed.
I'll probably start fairly high and bring it down, maybe ~150Hz to begin with. There's no way for this sub to reach deep, so might as well maximize its impact and have it augment the midbass at the same time. Due to its underseat placement, its aural queues play a much smaller role. At least that's the idea and the tentative plan.
Also, what freq are you going to crossover the sub at? or do ou have to experiment once it's in the car?
Sep 25, 2010, 08:58 PM
#6
Objective - Maximum impact for minimal weight, low distortion and large-scale dynamics while the car is moving. Semi-stealth install.
Desired (subjective) sound quality - an automotive equivalent of a Klipschhorn driven by a good amp and an analog front end. Again, while the car is moving
The gear:
Alpine 9887/6-disc changer to sit in the trunk
Arc Audio 4050 amplifier - 2 channels driving the fronts, 2 channels bridged for the sub
Earthquake SWS-8X driver in a .2ft3 poly-stuffed sealed box under the driver's seat
Speakers - Stock. No rear fill.
Weight:
Woofer + enclosure - ~5.5lbs (!)
Amplifier - 8lbs
Enclosure specs - 3 5/8"H, 8 3/8"W, 15.75"D. 1/4" MDF construction. Top, bottom and 8" sides carpeted, 15" sides painted black for a better fit. I may need a shoehorn for this.
The system will be installed and tuned during the course of the following week. I'm reserving the next couple of posts for install pics and listening impressions. This way, we can keep everything together at the top of the thread.
Sep 25, 2010, 09:57 PM
#7
Keep us posted on how it turns out, try to accomplish a similar objective but planning on going a different route. Pioneer HU, JL ZR series 6.5-6.75 components up front, JL ZR series 5.25 components in rear doors with baffles, and either a W3v3 6" or W7 8" woofers in the rear deck( trying to fab a box to go around or envelope the brackets and support bars under the deck{like ports on either side}) and a JL HD900/5 amp to push everything
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Sep 26, 2010, 11:30 AM
#8
I popped the 9887 back in running a (Zed-built) US Acoustics USA2050 into the factory fronts, and spent some time tuning the system. Really, the sound is pretty decent - a night and day difference compared to stock. Maybe borderline Class-E on Stereophile's scale.
At one point, after returning from a drive, cooling down the turbo for a minute in the garage, listening to music and noting a lack of texture and detail in the presentation, I turned off the car. Wouldn't you know it, the sound contained so much more audible information that was masked by the noise at idle. That's idle in the garage - no road noise with the windows down, the motor and exhaust are relatively quiet. Every time I consider installing the BA Pros, I wonder if there's a point, especially since the shockers can sound fairly impressive. They can be a lot of fun to listen to.
At one point, after returning from a drive, cooling down the turbo for a minute in the garage, listening to music and noting a lack of texture and detail in the presentation, I turned off the car. Wouldn't you know it, the sound contained so much more audible information that was masked by the noise at idle. That's idle in the garage - no road noise with the windows down, the motor and exhaust are relatively quiet. Every time I consider installing the BA Pros, I wonder if there's a point, especially since the shockers can sound fairly impressive. They can be a lot of fun to listen to.
Sep 26, 2010, 01:12 PM
#9
Best of luck with the project. This car isn't an easy thing to conquer, sonically I mean. No issues while it's standing still, of course, but on the move it's an entirely different matter. Take a look at some of my more recent posts for a detailed explanation. Let us know how things turn out, or if I can be of help.
Sep 29, 2010, 01:54 PM
#11
Hey, Jalal. I remember us talking about your Diamonds. Great speakers, BTW. I'm thinking about reinstalling a set of BA Pros. I've had them in the car before, and as I've mentioned, didn't love the performance relative to the noise floor. I've done some more work on the doors since then, I'm more familiar with the car's acoustics, and I'm trying to convince myself that a better than stock set of speakers may work. Point being, if I can get them to sound halfway decent, installing the Hex in the front may not be a bad idea. We'll see.
Last edited by FJF; Sep 29, 2010 at 02:20 PM.
Sep 29, 2010, 03:29 PM
#12
Hey, Jalal. I remember us talking about your Diamonds. Great speakers, BTW. I'm thinking about reinstalling a set of BA Pros. I've had them in the car before, and as I've mentioned, didn't love the performance relative to the noise floor. I've done some more work on the doors since then, I'm more familiar with the car's acoustics, and I'm trying to convince myself that a better than stock set of speakers may work. Point being, if I can get them to sound halfway decent, installing the Hex in the front may not be a bad idea. We'll see.
-Jalal
Sep 29, 2010, 04:03 PM
#13
If you ever get the urge for a meticulously put together 10 second street car complete with AC, a system, and a full interior ship the car to STM, and I'll do your paint when they're finished with the build. Then, you come to pick it up. Wouldn't that be cool!
Oct 1, 2010, 02:23 PM
#14
Quick update; the system is installed. For the most part. The sub enclosure didn't fit. I had a feeling; everything was going too well. So, the sub is behind the driver's seat for now. There are pics and I'll post them later tonight or tomorrow.
