Mustang Dyno or Dyno Dynamics?
Mar 31, 2009, 11:10 AM
#17
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MD, DD, DJ it doesn't matter, only one is king and that's a mainline dyno. Thread DD VS Mainline VS Mustang http://efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2421
Apr 1, 2009, 04:57 AM
#18
We have dyno dynamics and i love my dyno. No punching in air temp crap. Weather station does everything. It's very compact too. MD is bulky and retarded looking. What's up with MD dyno having software smoothing factor ? like a dynojet. There's a reason why up in Pike Peaks, they having a Dynamic dyno up there. In the end it doesn't matter what dyno you're on, it's just a tool.
Last edited by vboy425; Apr 1, 2009 at 05:02 AM.
Apr 1, 2009, 06:35 AM
#19
I'm not trying to **** off all the MD owners in here. Let me explain my situation and maybe you can help me understand where I'm wrong.
The thing I am confused by the most is the disparity in power numbers among other Mustang dynos across the country. You can't look at one shop's results and compare it to another shop's results. I think this is because there are so many extra pieces of data that can be input and everyone is doing it a little differently. It is hard for me to quantify these gains when deciding if I want to spend my money on that next mod.
I am not calling out GST, TTP, BR, or any of the vendors on this site. I have full faith in all of your tuning skills and abilities, and I have seen enough of your graphs to know what I am looking at and understand the gains. But I don't think a modded Evo would output the same numbers on all three of your dynos and that they report differently from each other. Correct me if I am wrong.
To be more specific, I only have experience with one MD locally, and the shop didn't have it very long the first time I went. For whatever reason, their unit does not nor has it ever displayed the output graph in real time on the main monitor the people in the car get to see. I just assumed this was the way MDs worked.
Here's their specific setup: The shop owners are not friendly to an outside tuner using their equipment (probably because they have little interest in nor the ability to tune turbo AWD cars), so other than looking over their shoulders when you are outside of the car, you don't get to learn much. Basically, you can pay for time and sit in the passenger seat with a laptop. They have one guy looking at a smaller monitor facing opposite the car (don't understand this at all) controlling the dyno, and a second staff member who drives the car on the dyno. The guy at the computer dictates what settings are used on the dyno without letting the people who paid for the dyno time have any input. The customer only gets to see the graph flashed up at the end of each run on a much bigger monitor which is facing the passenger side of the car.
I also couldn't correlate numbers. I had a friend's WRX who needed tuning (EJ205, vf30, FMIC), but he was a customer of the MD shop. They had power pulled him several times, but had no idea how to tune his car. He had baselined there and made 271whp. I told him I did not want to tune his car at their shop, and would prefer to drive to the DD shop. The original tune on the car was a base map and it was pretty unsafe for his mods. It baselined on the DD at 245whp (again 271 MD). I cleaned it up and got it to 278whp on the DD. This guy drag races. His car trapped 108mph pre tuning and 111mph post tuning I can get my head around this correlation. It gained 33whp and increased 3mph.
He ended up going back to the MD shop to get a power pull, because he wanted to see higher numbers that he could e-thug with. The car made 328whp at that point!!! This is the identical map I made 278 with on the DD.
I can't wrap my mind around it at all. The baselines at 271, jumps to 328 for a 57whp gain, but that only accounts for a 3mph trap speed increase? What is wrong here?
So here's my questions to you MD owners:
Are the operators at this particular local shop just clueless?
Are their power gains:trap speed correlation atypical?
Why can't I see the graph output in real time on the second monitor?
Why do they use smoothing?
Back on Dyno Dynamics, they should all read the same, but some shop owners sell out and correct numbers because as I said in another thread, they'd rather have their customer feel excited about a big number than educate them on how the dyno really works. I have seen many uncorrected DDs across the country, and they are all very close to each other in power reporting. When the numbers and especially the gains are unilateral, I have a better feel of what I am accomplishing.
The thing I am confused by the most is the disparity in power numbers among other Mustang dynos across the country. You can't look at one shop's results and compare it to another shop's results. I think this is because there are so many extra pieces of data that can be input and everyone is doing it a little differently. It is hard for me to quantify these gains when deciding if I want to spend my money on that next mod.
I am not calling out GST, TTP, BR, or any of the vendors on this site. I have full faith in all of your tuning skills and abilities, and I have seen enough of your graphs to know what I am looking at and understand the gains. But I don't think a modded Evo would output the same numbers on all three of your dynos and that they report differently from each other. Correct me if I am wrong.
To be more specific, I only have experience with one MD locally, and the shop didn't have it very long the first time I went. For whatever reason, their unit does not nor has it ever displayed the output graph in real time on the main monitor the people in the car get to see. I just assumed this was the way MDs worked.
Here's their specific setup: The shop owners are not friendly to an outside tuner using their equipment (probably because they have little interest in nor the ability to tune turbo AWD cars), so other than looking over their shoulders when you are outside of the car, you don't get to learn much. Basically, you can pay for time and sit in the passenger seat with a laptop. They have one guy looking at a smaller monitor facing opposite the car (don't understand this at all) controlling the dyno, and a second staff member who drives the car on the dyno. The guy at the computer dictates what settings are used on the dyno without letting the people who paid for the dyno time have any input. The customer only gets to see the graph flashed up at the end of each run on a much bigger monitor which is facing the passenger side of the car.
I also couldn't correlate numbers. I had a friend's WRX who needed tuning (EJ205, vf30, FMIC), but he was a customer of the MD shop. They had power pulled him several times, but had no idea how to tune his car. He had baselined there and made 271whp. I told him I did not want to tune his car at their shop, and would prefer to drive to the DD shop. The original tune on the car was a base map and it was pretty unsafe for his mods. It baselined on the DD at 245whp (again 271 MD). I cleaned it up and got it to 278whp on the DD. This guy drag races. His car trapped 108mph pre tuning and 111mph post tuning I can get my head around this correlation. It gained 33whp and increased 3mph.
He ended up going back to the MD shop to get a power pull, because he wanted to see higher numbers that he could e-thug with. The car made 328whp at that point!!! This is the identical map I made 278 with on the DD.
I can't wrap my mind around it at all. The baselines at 271, jumps to 328 for a 57whp gain, but that only accounts for a 3mph trap speed increase? What is wrong here?So here's my questions to you MD owners:
Are the operators at this particular local shop just clueless?
Are their power gains:trap speed correlation atypical?
Why can't I see the graph output in real time on the second monitor?
Why do they use smoothing?
Back on Dyno Dynamics, they should all read the same, but some shop owners sell out and correct numbers because as I said in another thread, they'd rather have their customer feel excited about a big number than educate them on how the dyno really works. I have seen many uncorrected DDs across the country, and they are all very close to each other in power reporting. When the numbers and especially the gains are unilateral, I have a better feel of what I am accomplishing.
Last edited by Noize; Apr 1, 2009 at 07:10 AM. Reason: softened
Apr 1, 2009, 07:41 AM
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Back on Dyno Dynamics, they should all read the same, but some shop owners sell out and correct numbers because as I said in another thread, they'd rather have their customer feel excited about a big number than educate them on how the dyno really works. I have seen many uncorrected DDs across the country, and they are all very close to each other in power reporting. When the numbers and especially the gains are unilateral, I have a better feel of what I am accomplishing.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly how I feel coming from owning a DynoDynamics Dyno. Sometimes it is very hard to explain to someone how this dyno works and why he/she is not making their expected numbers. In fact, I enjoy going into detail and really giving the customer knowledge on how this machine works rather than juicing up some correction factors to spit out a number. I refuse to use any correction other than 1.0 and do not use shootout mode. I once did it in the beginning on the first few dyno days we had. I would give the customer the option of both numbers but that turned into a mess and since then I do not offer that option here at DG Motors.
This is exactly how I feel coming from owning a DynoDynamics Dyno. Sometimes it is very hard to explain to someone how this dyno works and why he/she is not making their expected numbers. In fact, I enjoy going into detail and really giving the customer knowledge on how this machine works rather than juicing up some correction factors to spit out a number. I refuse to use any correction other than 1.0 and do not use shootout mode. I once did it in the beginning on the first few dyno days we had. I would give the customer the option of both numbers but that turned into a mess and since then I do not offer that option here at DG Motors.
Apr 1, 2009, 08:06 AM
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Back on Dyno Dynamics, they should all read the same, but some shop owners sell out and correct numbers because as I said in another thread, they'd rather have their customer feel excited about a big number than educate them on how the dyno really works. I have seen many uncorrected DDs across the country, and they are all very close to each other in power reporting. When the numbers and especially the gains are unilateral, I have a better feel of what I am accomplishing.
This is exactly how I feel coming from owning a DynoDynamics Dyno. Sometimes it is very hard to explain to someone how this dyno works and why he/she is not making their expected numbers. In fact, I enjoy going into detail and really giving the customer knowledge on how this machine works rather than juicing up some correction factors to spit out a number. I refuse to use any correction other than 1.0 and do not use shootout mode. I once did it in the beginning on the first few dyno days we had. I would give the customer the option of both numbers but that turned into a mess and since then I do not offer that option here at DG Motors.
Thats why I don't feel bad about my whimpy 342whp X cause I know what that 342 really means when it is produced using a 1.0 correction factor.
Apr 1, 2009, 08:22 AM
#22
We have dyno dynamics and i love my dyno. No punching in air temp crap. Weather station does everything. It's very compact too. MD is bulky and retarded looking. What's up with MD dyno having software smoothing factor ? like a dynojet. There's a reason why up in Pike Peaks, they having a Dynamic dyno up there. In the end it doesn't matter what dyno you're on, it's just a tool.
Apr 1, 2009, 10:16 AM
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There is a new kid on the block these days, though I cannot remember the name. It's supposed to beat the pants off both mustang and dynodynamics so we may all be back again at some point to defend our favorites in a few months
And by best, I am referring to the ability to do steady state loading and view realtime output so you can abort mid run if you see anything going south during the run.
As everyone else has stated, the dyno is a tool used for tuning. It's a shame so many people put so much emphasis on the "numbers". People need to be educated enough to look at baseline numbers and gains and filter out the hype.
Apr 1, 2009, 10:24 AM
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[QUOTE=mad_VIII;6884370]Same for dynodynamics. I think it is fair to say the two best, commonly used, all around dyno's in the states are mustang and dynodynamics. I know dyno4mance has had issues getting support from dynodynamics (for feature upgrades etc) but I think that is mainly because the dyno was not purchased through a us distributor, it was purchased from the UK and shipped over here.
I will agree by saying dynodynamics customer service is horrible. Especially from who I have to deal with up here on the east coast. Try getting a wide band sensor, it's like pulling teeth!
I will agree by saying dynodynamics customer service is horrible. Especially from who I have to deal with up here on the east coast. Try getting a wide band sensor, it's like pulling teeth!
Apr 1, 2009, 12:14 PM
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[QUOTE=DG Motors;6884425]
That must be Steve Nicholes
Same for dynodynamics. I think it is fair to say the two best, commonly used, all around dyno's in the states are mustang and dynodynamics. I know dyno4mance has had issues getting support from dynodynamics (for feature upgrades etc) but I think that is mainly because the dyno was not purchased through a us distributor, it was purchased from the UK and shipped over here.
I will agree by saying dynodynamics customer service is horrible. Especially from who I have to deal with up here on the east coast. Try getting a wide band sensor, it's like pulling teeth!
I will agree by saying dynodynamics customer service is horrible. Especially from who I have to deal with up here on the east coast. Try getting a wide band sensor, it's like pulling teeth!
Last edited by Mad_SB; Apr 1, 2009 at 12:34 PM.
Apr 1, 2009, 12:52 PM
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[QUOTE=mad_VIII;6885036][QUOTE=DG Motors;6884425]
That must be Steve Nicholes[/QUOTE
Enzo is the distributor up here on the East Coast, Our dyno was built in a Kentucky Factory.
That must be Steve Nicholes
[/QUOTEEnzo is the distributor up here on the East Coast, Our dyno was built in a Kentucky Factory.
Apr 1, 2009, 02:18 PM
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I'm not trying to **** off all the MD owners in here. Let me explain my situation and maybe you can help me understand where I'm wrong.
The thing I am confused by the most is the disparity in power numbers among other Mustang dynos across the country. You can't look at one shop's results and compare it to another shop's results. I think this is because there are so many extra pieces of data that can be input and everyone is doing it a little differently. It is hard for me to quantify these gains when deciding if I want to spend my money on that next mod.
I am not calling out GST, TTP, BR, or any of the vendors on this site. I have full faith in all of your tuning skills and abilities, and I have seen enough of your graphs to know what I am looking at and understand the gains. But I don't think a modded Evo would output the same numbers on all three of your dynos and that they report differently from each other. Correct me if I am wrong.
To be more specific, I only have experience with one MD locally, and the shop didn't have it very long the first time I went. For whatever reason, their unit does not nor has it ever displayed the output graph in real time on the main monitor the people in the car get to see. I just assumed this was the way MDs worked.
Here's their specific setup: The shop owners are not friendly to an outside tuner using their equipment (probably because they have little interest in nor the ability to tune turbo AWD cars), so other than looking over their shoulders when you are outside of the car, you don't get to learn much. Basically, you can pay for time and sit in the passenger seat with a laptop. They have one guy looking at a smaller monitor facing opposite the car (don't understand this at all) controlling the dyno, and a second staff member who drives the car on the dyno. The guy at the computer dictates what settings are used on the dyno without letting the people who paid for the dyno time have any input. The customer only gets to see the graph flashed up at the end of each run on a much bigger monitor which is facing the passenger side of the car.
I also couldn't correlate numbers. I had a friend's WRX who needed tuning (EJ205, vf30, FMIC), but he was a customer of the MD shop. They had power pulled him several times, but had no idea how to tune his car. He had baselined there and made 271whp. I told him I did not want to tune his car at their shop, and would prefer to drive to the DD shop. The original tune on the car was a base map and it was pretty unsafe for his mods. It baselined on the DD at 245whp (again 271 MD). I cleaned it up and got it to 278whp on the DD. This guy drag races. His car trapped 108mph pre tuning and 111mph post tuning I can get my head around this correlation. It gained 33whp and increased 3mph.
He ended up going back to the MD shop to get a power pull, because he wanted to see higher numbers that he could e-thug with. The car made 328whp at that point!!! This is the identical map I made 278 with on the DD. I can't wrap my mind around it at all. The baselines at 271, jumps to 328 for a 57whp gain, but that only accounts for a 3mph trap speed increase? What is wrong here?
So here's my questions to you MD owners:
Are the operators at this particular local shop just clueless?
Are their power gains:trap speed correlation atypical?
Why can't I see the graph output in real time on the second monitor?
Why do they use smoothing?
Back on Dyno Dynamics, they should all read the same, but some shop owners sell out and correct numbers because as I said in another thread, they'd rather have their customer feel excited about a big number than educate them on how the dyno really works. I have seen many uncorrected DDs across the country, and they are all very close to each other in power reporting. When the numbers and especially the gains are unilateral, I have a better feel of what I am accomplishing.
The thing I am confused by the most is the disparity in power numbers among other Mustang dynos across the country. You can't look at one shop's results and compare it to another shop's results. I think this is because there are so many extra pieces of data that can be input and everyone is doing it a little differently. It is hard for me to quantify these gains when deciding if I want to spend my money on that next mod.
I am not calling out GST, TTP, BR, or any of the vendors on this site. I have full faith in all of your tuning skills and abilities, and I have seen enough of your graphs to know what I am looking at and understand the gains. But I don't think a modded Evo would output the same numbers on all three of your dynos and that they report differently from each other. Correct me if I am wrong.
To be more specific, I only have experience with one MD locally, and the shop didn't have it very long the first time I went. For whatever reason, their unit does not nor has it ever displayed the output graph in real time on the main monitor the people in the car get to see. I just assumed this was the way MDs worked.
Here's their specific setup: The shop owners are not friendly to an outside tuner using their equipment (probably because they have little interest in nor the ability to tune turbo AWD cars), so other than looking over their shoulders when you are outside of the car, you don't get to learn much. Basically, you can pay for time and sit in the passenger seat with a laptop. They have one guy looking at a smaller monitor facing opposite the car (don't understand this at all) controlling the dyno, and a second staff member who drives the car on the dyno. The guy at the computer dictates what settings are used on the dyno without letting the people who paid for the dyno time have any input. The customer only gets to see the graph flashed up at the end of each run on a much bigger monitor which is facing the passenger side of the car.
I also couldn't correlate numbers. I had a friend's WRX who needed tuning (EJ205, vf30, FMIC), but he was a customer of the MD shop. They had power pulled him several times, but had no idea how to tune his car. He had baselined there and made 271whp. I told him I did not want to tune his car at their shop, and would prefer to drive to the DD shop. The original tune on the car was a base map and it was pretty unsafe for his mods. It baselined on the DD at 245whp (again 271 MD). I cleaned it up and got it to 278whp on the DD. This guy drag races. His car trapped 108mph pre tuning and 111mph post tuning I can get my head around this correlation. It gained 33whp and increased 3mph.
He ended up going back to the MD shop to get a power pull, because he wanted to see higher numbers that he could e-thug with. The car made 328whp at that point!!! This is the identical map I made 278 with on the DD.
I can't wrap my mind around it at all. The baselines at 271, jumps to 328 for a 57whp gain, but that only accounts for a 3mph trap speed increase? What is wrong here?So here's my questions to you MD owners:
Are the operators at this particular local shop just clueless?
Are their power gains:trap speed correlation atypical?
Why can't I see the graph output in real time on the second monitor?
Why do they use smoothing?
Back on Dyno Dynamics, they should all read the same, but some shop owners sell out and correct numbers because as I said in another thread, they'd rather have their customer feel excited about a big number than educate them on how the dyno really works. I have seen many uncorrected DDs across the country, and they are all very close to each other in power reporting. When the numbers and especially the gains are unilateral, I have a better feel of what I am accomplishing.
I recently took a trip to do some tuning and testing on the Edmunds Project 10 GSR. I had the luxury of picking the shop to do the testing at (rare) and I picked one that had a Mustang dyno because we have a Mustang dyno, I enjoy working on Mustang dynos and for the sake of time I could just get right into the tuning and not the setup.
It didn't work out that way, it was a slightly different model Mustang, with different rollers, different setup, the straps where different, the software was different, the monitor location was different, I couldn't operate it as I drove, there had to be a second person there to do it, etc etc. It was totally different then how I work on our Mustang dyno and what should have taken me 2 hours took me 4-5 hours.
Could I set it up to mimic our dyno and workflow if I had the time? Probably.
Like most things in this industry, you get out what you put in and the setup is usually the most important step in that process.
The numbers game can be played for years (it has), every dyno can read differently and if not setup correctly or tweaked in a evil way, can also read differently day to day or even pull to pull.
The number one use for a dyno is for tuning. I think it would shock some people to say that I don't even look at actual power numbers until far into the tuning process on the dyno. Curve shape, difference in overlays and all the other data is far more important to me as a tuner than two little three digit numbers. Sure I get excited by peak numbers sometimes like everyone else, hell I am an enthusiast first and a tuner second.
Apr 1, 2009, 02:22 PM
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It's all in the set up Noize.
I recently took a trip to do some tuning and testing on the Edmunds Project 10 GSR. I had the luxury of picking the shop to do the testing at (rare) and I picked one that had a Mustang dyno because we have a Mustang dyno, I enjoy working on Mustang dynos and for the sake of time I could just get right into the tuning and not the setup.
It didn't work out that way, it was a slightly different model Mustang, with different rollers, different setup, the straps where different, the software was different, the monitor location was different, I couldn't operate it as I drove, there had to be a second person there to do it, etc etc. It was totally different then how I work on our Mustang dyno and what should have taken me 2 hours took me 4-5 hours.
Could I set it up to mimic our dyno and workflow if I had the time? Probably.
Like most things in this industry, you get out what you put in and the setup is usually the most important step in that process.
The numbers game can be played for years (it has), every dyno can read differently and if not setup correctly or tweaked in a evil way, can also read differently day to day or even pull to pull.
The number one use for a dyno is for tuning. I think it would shock some people to say that I don't even look at actual power numbers until far into the tuning process on the dyno. Curve shape, difference in overlays and all the other data is far more important to me as a tuner than two little three digit numbers. Sure I get excited by peak numbers sometimes like everyone else, hell I am an enthusiast first and a tuner second.
I recently took a trip to do some tuning and testing on the Edmunds Project 10 GSR. I had the luxury of picking the shop to do the testing at (rare) and I picked one that had a Mustang dyno because we have a Mustang dyno, I enjoy working on Mustang dynos and for the sake of time I could just get right into the tuning and not the setup.
It didn't work out that way, it was a slightly different model Mustang, with different rollers, different setup, the straps where different, the software was different, the monitor location was different, I couldn't operate it as I drove, there had to be a second person there to do it, etc etc. It was totally different then how I work on our Mustang dyno and what should have taken me 2 hours took me 4-5 hours.
Could I set it up to mimic our dyno and workflow if I had the time? Probably.
Like most things in this industry, you get out what you put in and the setup is usually the most important step in that process.
The numbers game can be played for years (it has), every dyno can read differently and if not setup correctly or tweaked in a evil way, can also read differently day to day or even pull to pull.
The number one use for a dyno is for tuning. I think it would shock some people to say that I don't even look at actual power numbers until far into the tuning process on the dyno. Curve shape, difference in overlays and all the other data is far more important to me as a tuner than two little three digit numbers. Sure I get excited by peak numbers sometimes like everyone else, hell I am an enthusiast first and a tuner second.
Apr 1, 2009, 07:51 PM
#30
It's all in the set up Noize.
I recently took a trip to do some tuning and testing on the Edmunds Project 10 GSR. I had the luxury of picking the shop to do the testing at (rare) and I picked one that had a Mustang dyno because we have a Mustang dyno, I enjoy working on Mustang dynos and for the sake of time I could just get right into the tuning and not the setup.
It didn't work out that way, it was a slightly different model Mustang, with different rollers, different setup, the straps where different, the software was different, the monitor location was different, I couldn't operate it as I drove, there had to be a second person there to do it, etc etc. It was totally different then how I work on our Mustang dyno and what should have taken me 2 hours took me 4-5 hours.
Could I set it up to mimic our dyno and workflow if I had the time? Probably.
Like most things in this industry, you get out what you put in and the setup is usually the most important step in that process.
The numbers game can be played for years (it has), every dyno can read differently and if not setup correctly or tweaked in a evil way, can also read differently day to day or even pull to pull.
The number one use for a dyno is for tuning. I think it would shock some people to say that I don't even look at actual power numbers until far into the tuning process on the dyno. Curve shape, difference in overlays and all the other data is far more important to me as a tuner than two little three digit numbers. Sure I get excited by peak numbers sometimes like everyone else, hell I am an enthusiast first and a tuner second.
I recently took a trip to do some tuning and testing on the Edmunds Project 10 GSR. I had the luxury of picking the shop to do the testing at (rare) and I picked one that had a Mustang dyno because we have a Mustang dyno, I enjoy working on Mustang dynos and for the sake of time I could just get right into the tuning and not the setup.
It didn't work out that way, it was a slightly different model Mustang, with different rollers, different setup, the straps where different, the software was different, the monitor location was different, I couldn't operate it as I drove, there had to be a second person there to do it, etc etc. It was totally different then how I work on our Mustang dyno and what should have taken me 2 hours took me 4-5 hours.
Could I set it up to mimic our dyno and workflow if I had the time? Probably.
Like most things in this industry, you get out what you put in and the setup is usually the most important step in that process.
The numbers game can be played for years (it has), every dyno can read differently and if not setup correctly or tweaked in a evil way, can also read differently day to day or even pull to pull.
The number one use for a dyno is for tuning. I think it would shock some people to say that I don't even look at actual power numbers until far into the tuning process on the dyno. Curve shape, difference in overlays and all the other data is far more important to me as a tuner than two little three digit numbers. Sure I get excited by peak numbers sometimes like everyone else, hell I am an enthusiast first and a tuner second.
I'm not obsessed with numbers, but I just couldn't understand the gains the customer saw from the MD. This local shop to me would do really well to hire someone who has a clue or take the time on their own to learn to use what they have.