Quick Overlay of comparing BBK Full and HTA Green
Apr 2, 2010, 02:52 PM
#16
Just figured I'd give you a quick opinion on the above differences you mentioned.
1. The Perrin intercooler has proven to be very effective. I personally have one on my car and have done extensive logging with a GM AIT sensor in my intake manifold and have been nothing but happy with the results its shown on my car. With the size of turbos in this comparison I'm going to call this a draw. Scheides (BR Race) and I did some side-by-side pulls and comparsions a while back before I moved to TX and our MAT temps where within a few degrees of one another. Anyway, lets not let this turn into another X vs. Y bashing thread; our testing wasn't scientific, no I don't have the data anymore, I just remember they were so similar run after run we shrugged it off and went to go drink some beers.
2. The ported stock exhaust manifold definitely gets the nod in this one.
3. The eBay/Megan/whatever you want to call it o2 housing has been proven to show good results. I'm going to call this a draw.
4. I'm also going to call the upper IC pipes a draw; the differences are probably minor and I can't seem them showing any noticeable real-world difference one way or the other.
Again, like everything else, this is just one man's 2-cents. Testing one car vs. another is never going to be perfect, but I still appreciate Scheides taking the time to show us a basic comparison of these two turbos.
1. The Perrin intercooler has proven to be very effective. I personally have one on my car and have done extensive logging with a GM AIT sensor in my intake manifold and have been nothing but happy with the results its shown on my car. With the size of turbos in this comparison I'm going to call this a draw. Scheides (BR Race) and I did some side-by-side pulls and comparsions a while back before I moved to TX and our MAT temps where within a few degrees of one another. Anyway, lets not let this turn into another X vs. Y bashing thread; our testing wasn't scientific, no I don't have the data anymore, I just remember they were so similar run after run we shrugged it off and went to go drink some beers.
2. The ported stock exhaust manifold definitely gets the nod in this one.
3. The eBay/Megan/whatever you want to call it o2 housing has been proven to show good results. I'm going to call this a draw.
4. I'm also going to call the upper IC pipes a draw; the differences are probably minor and I can't seem them showing any noticeable real-world difference one way or the other.
Again, like everything else, this is just one man's 2-cents. Testing one car vs. another is never going to be perfect, but I still appreciate Scheides taking the time to show us a basic comparison of these two turbos.
Mike
Apr 2, 2010, 02:53 PM
#17
Do we know if 1 car is 100 cranking compression and the other 1 160?? testing on 2 cars really doesnt show much of anything.. again my honest opinion.. not hating its my opinion.. does anyone recall 9sec9 turbo tesing with 1 graph and the other a pencil sketch from 2 different cars, turbos and dynos?? LOL
Mike
Mike
Apr 2, 2010, 03:00 PM
#18
Like i said as well i appreciate the overlay but find it misleading as my personal opinion.. I do A LOT OF TESTING and it is my professional opinion that NONE OF THOSE are a draw for sure.. Especially the BR ported vs. Megan.. 2 LAZY spoolers, the megan and the Magnus vs stock ported...
Mike
Mike
Apr 2, 2010, 05:33 PM
#21
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if you whacked the magnus on the bbk, wouldn't they then spool about the same but the bbk in turn make more up top?
In the end though, they do seem to be fairly similar, the green SHOULD make more when pushed but that hasn't been proven yet.
BBK still looks stock
In the end though, they do seem to be fairly similar, the green SHOULD make more when pushed but that hasn't been proven yet.
BBK still looks stock
Apr 2, 2010, 05:36 PM
#22
Okay so here is the skinny on these cars.
As Mike pointed out they are not anywhere close to apples to apples. The BBK took alot more to get to the same point and had some mods that really count (TiTek vs Megan) both as far as spool and as far as total power achieved.
Earlier in the year we seemed to have MAP sensor issues one after the other so that is the reason there is no boost plot for the BBK. I can tell it was over 29psi, 29.3 as I recall. The Car equipped with the 73HTA Green had some misfire issues and was not being tuned to the same level. We ran it to 30psi but only picked up torque because that car didnt seem to like timing out the top. Dropping it back to 27 made best power and only sacrificed a little torque.
Spool is completely relative to the cams and intake feeding off of each other. This car on a stock intake would spool the same with the S2s, as it is we are seeing just a 350-400 rpm difference. Because the owner specifically told me he wanted to make HIGH speed pulls I didnt tune it as aggressive up top (timing was 12-13*) vs the 14-15* the BBK was setup with and I left it a little richer than the BBK for the same reason.
Comparing these is silly unless it is the SAME CAR and/or exact same mods. In my opinion, the HTA Green will stomp the BBK at the same boost if tuned to the exact same level. Brett was happy with where the 73HTA Green was, so we didnt push it any further than we already had. There is definitely more in it had that been in the cards. I never tune anything less than 101% unless instructed to do so by the owner or I am taking into account how the car is being used.
I realise this is just my word on the boost but here are the comparo's of the BBK at less boost to the 73HTA Green. Run 16 was 28.5psi/29 (with the same timing as the 73HTA Green) and run 15 was 26.8/27 with the same timing as the 73HTA Green.
I dont have logs for either car other than the dyno and my normally pretty flawless memory. I always remember the ones I push and get surprised by.
aaron
As Mike pointed out they are not anywhere close to apples to apples. The BBK took alot more to get to the same point and had some mods that really count (TiTek vs Megan) both as far as spool and as far as total power achieved.
Earlier in the year we seemed to have MAP sensor issues one after the other so that is the reason there is no boost plot for the BBK. I can tell it was over 29psi, 29.3 as I recall. The Car equipped with the 73HTA Green had some misfire issues and was not being tuned to the same level. We ran it to 30psi but only picked up torque because that car didnt seem to like timing out the top. Dropping it back to 27 made best power and only sacrificed a little torque.
Spool is completely relative to the cams and intake feeding off of each other. This car on a stock intake would spool the same with the S2s, as it is we are seeing just a 350-400 rpm difference. Because the owner specifically told me he wanted to make HIGH speed pulls I didnt tune it as aggressive up top (timing was 12-13*) vs the 14-15* the BBK was setup with and I left it a little richer than the BBK for the same reason.
Comparing these is silly unless it is the SAME CAR and/or exact same mods. In my opinion, the HTA Green will stomp the BBK at the same boost if tuned to the exact same level. Brett was happy with where the 73HTA Green was, so we didnt push it any further than we already had. There is definitely more in it had that been in the cards. I never tune anything less than 101% unless instructed to do so by the owner or I am taking into account how the car is being used.
I realise this is just my word on the boost but here are the comparo's of the BBK at less boost to the 73HTA Green. Run 16 was 28.5psi/29 (with the same timing as the 73HTA Green) and run 15 was 26.8/27 with the same timing as the 73HTA Green.
I dont have logs for either car other than the dyno and my normally pretty flawless memory. I always remember the ones I push and get surprised by.
aaron
Last edited by JohnBradley; Apr 2, 2010 at 05:48 PM.
Apr 2, 2010, 10:21 PM
#24
I thought it was obvious that the HTA green was a superior turbo to the BBK. I'm not saying the BBK is bad, but it's not equal to the HTA green. Making a comparison with two different cars, tuned at different times...I think we know that's not accurate. Doing that, we can have 50 different results.
I think Aaron's comments are solid proof for the HTA. The HTA green had roughly 2 degrees less timing (usually about 20whp), 2 psi less boost (usually good for 20 whp) and a few inferior parts. Yet, the first posts shows comparable results. I think that suggests the HTA green is good for ~50whp over the BBK, all else being equal. I think that's about right in line in what the compressors on each turbo are capable of.
Also, I would imagine the HTA green to take an even bigger lead at higher boost levels on E85.
I think Aaron's comments are solid proof for the HTA. The HTA green had roughly 2 degrees less timing (usually about 20whp), 2 psi less boost (usually good for 20 whp) and a few inferior parts. Yet, the first posts shows comparable results. I think that suggests the HTA green is good for ~50whp over the BBK, all else being equal. I think that's about right in line in what the compressors on each turbo are capable of.
Also, I would imagine the HTA green to take an even bigger lead at higher boost levels on E85.
Last edited by l2r99gst; Apr 2, 2010 at 10:24 PM.
Apr 2, 2010, 10:26 PM
#25
Okay so here is the skinny on these cars.
As Mike pointed out they are not anywhere close to apples to apples. The BBK took alot more to get to the same point and had some mods that really count (TiTek vs Megan) both as far as spool and as far as total power achieved.
Earlier in the year we seemed to have MAP sensor issues one after the other so that is the reason there is no boost plot for the BBK. I can tell it was over 29psi, 29.3 as I recall. The Car equipped with the 73HTA Green had some misfire issues and was not being tuned to the same level. We ran it to 30psi but only picked up torque because that car didnt seem to like timing out the top. Dropping it back to 27 made best power and only sacrificed a little torque.
Spool is completely relative to the cams and intake feeding off of each other. This car on a stock intake would spool the same with the S2s, as it is we are seeing just a 350-400 rpm difference. Because the owner specifically told me he wanted to make HIGH speed pulls I didnt tune it as aggressive up top (timing was 12-13*) vs the 14-15* the BBK was setup with and I left it a little richer than the BBK for the same reason.
Comparing these is silly unless it is the SAME CAR and/or exact same mods. In my opinion, the HTA Green will stomp the BBK at the same boost if tuned to the exact same level. Brett was happy with where the 73HTA Green was, so we didnt push it any further than we already had. There is definitely more in it had that been in the cards. I never tune anything less than 101% unless instructed to do so by the owner or I am taking into account how the car is being used.
I realise this is just my word on the boost but here are the comparo's of the BBK at less boost to the 73HTA Green. Run 16 was 28.5psi/29 (with the same timing as the 73HTA Green) and run 15 was 26.8/27 with the same timing as the 73HTA Green.
I dont have logs for either car other than the dyno and my normally pretty flawless memory. I always remember the ones I push and get surprised by.
aaron
As Mike pointed out they are not anywhere close to apples to apples. The BBK took alot more to get to the same point and had some mods that really count (TiTek vs Megan) both as far as spool and as far as total power achieved.
Earlier in the year we seemed to have MAP sensor issues one after the other so that is the reason there is no boost plot for the BBK. I can tell it was over 29psi, 29.3 as I recall. The Car equipped with the 73HTA Green had some misfire issues and was not being tuned to the same level. We ran it to 30psi but only picked up torque because that car didnt seem to like timing out the top. Dropping it back to 27 made best power and only sacrificed a little torque.
Spool is completely relative to the cams and intake feeding off of each other. This car on a stock intake would spool the same with the S2s, as it is we are seeing just a 350-400 rpm difference. Because the owner specifically told me he wanted to make HIGH speed pulls I didnt tune it as aggressive up top (timing was 12-13*) vs the 14-15* the BBK was setup with and I left it a little richer than the BBK for the same reason.
Comparing these is silly unless it is the SAME CAR and/or exact same mods. In my opinion, the HTA Green will stomp the BBK at the same boost if tuned to the exact same level. Brett was happy with where the 73HTA Green was, so we didnt push it any further than we already had. There is definitely more in it had that been in the cards. I never tune anything less than 101% unless instructed to do so by the owner or I am taking into account how the car is being used.
I realise this is just my word on the boost but here are the comparo's of the BBK at less boost to the 73HTA Green. Run 16 was 28.5psi/29 (with the same timing as the 73HTA Green) and run 15 was 26.8/27 with the same timing as the 73HTA Green.
I dont have logs for either car other than the dyno and my normally pretty flawless memory. I always remember the ones I push and get surprised by.
aaron
So there we have it.. From the man who did the tuning and setup on BOTH CARS with a true overlay.. Thanks Man!!!
Mike
