648whp on Pumpgas
if you could get it to hook, sure!
Dec 26, 2010, 09:22 PM
#68
Go log knock voltage on numerous car you may find some interesting results. I've logged maxed out knock sensors on more then one occasion on stock blocks. Like Aaron said, lots of things can create a ton of noise/vibration that can easily cover up the noise caused by detonation. You should realize too that it's not really noise, but vibration that is the issue. You can induce a lot of vibration into something and not really have lot of noise.
Everyone has their own way of adjusting the sensor, if it works it works.. i choose my own way.
Just dont say the sensor is not useful after 400whp, because that is not true. the sensor can be setup to withstand any engine noise, the hard part is getting it adjusted for the noise environment without disabling it at the same time.
Just dont say the sensor is not useful after 400whp, because that is not true. the sensor can be setup to withstand any engine noise, the hard part is getting it adjusted for the noise environment without disabling it at the same time.
If that pump was louder then the entire engine itself and you had to drownd out that pump noise then that is a example of how the knock sensors no longer functional.. cause if you have to drownd out a noise thats louder then the actual engine then the knock sensors never gonna pick up knock for the most part, then id get electronic knock headphones etc.
typical evo even 600whp builds can use stock knock sensor just fine though granted nothing crazy is going on like example above.
typical evo even 600whp builds can use stock knock sensor just fine though granted nothing crazy is going on like example above.
Last edited by 03whitegsr; Dec 26, 2010 at 09:26 PM.
Dec 26, 2010, 10:10 PM
#69
Did you really just make a post about configuring knock multipliers properly and follow it up by saying you've never logged knock voltage?
Go log knock voltage on numerous car you may find some interesting results. I've logged maxed out knock sensors on more then one occasion on stock blocks. Like Aaron said, lots of things can create a ton of noise/vibration that can easily cover up the noise caused by detonation. You should realize too that it's not really noise, but vibration that is the issue. You can induce a lot of vibration into something and not really have lot of noise.
Maybe you should go read my post again. I said nothing like "the (knock) sensor is not useful after 400whp." I simply said I would never RELY on the knock sensor above that point. Yes, it can work when everything is peachy, but once you get above roughly that power level, you start reaching a point where a lot of things have been changed and you can easily have a setup that maxes out the sensor and unless you look for it, you'd never know.
A clutch alone can make the knock sensor detect false knock. If it is able to cause false knock, that also means it is adding a lot of vibration that the sensor is able to detect. That extra noise gets added into the moving knock average and can lead to maxing out the moving average eliminating the ability for the system to determine what is detonation. My point is not that they don't work but only that I would consider it lacking until proven (on that particular setup) to work properly. It is setup dependent and it is foolish to assume "nothing crazy is going on."
Go log knock voltage on numerous car you may find some interesting results. I've logged maxed out knock sensors on more then one occasion on stock blocks. Like Aaron said, lots of things can create a ton of noise/vibration that can easily cover up the noise caused by detonation. You should realize too that it's not really noise, but vibration that is the issue. You can induce a lot of vibration into something and not really have lot of noise.
Maybe you should go read my post again. I said nothing like "the (knock) sensor is not useful after 400whp." I simply said I would never RELY on the knock sensor above that point. Yes, it can work when everything is peachy, but once you get above roughly that power level, you start reaching a point where a lot of things have been changed and you can easily have a setup that maxes out the sensor and unless you look for it, you'd never know.
A clutch alone can make the knock sensor detect false knock. If it is able to cause false knock, that also means it is adding a lot of vibration that the sensor is able to detect. That extra noise gets added into the moving knock average and can lead to maxing out the moving average eliminating the ability for the system to determine what is detonation. My point is not that they don't work but only that I would consider it lacking until proven (on that particular setup) to work properly. It is setup dependent and it is foolish to assume "nothing crazy is going on."
Do you understand the fact that the voltage will be high regardless if its real or fake? if its real its real.. the knock sensor isnt going to do magic to let you know the difference. I dont feel the voltage is worth a damn so i dont use it. If I set a car up right and its still showing knock just reving up in neutral then that tells me its phantom knock and mostly clutch related.. so i remove it until it stops doing it.. i dont give a **** about voltage this isnt AEM.
This subject is so debate able its not worth even getting into. I am not watching voltage now and wont start. Show me something that shows otherwise to convince me i should?
If you're trying to say detonation makes its own distinctive voltage level each time it occurs i call bs on that. an explosions going to vary every time when it occurs.
Also thinking about it more, nothing can out power the sound when the knock sensors screwed right into the block.. you cant easily drownd out the sensor to the block when its connected right to it ..
What are you getting out of your posts here?
Convince me i should read voltage I am waiting to here what you say.
Dec 26, 2010, 10:20 PM
#70
have you guys tried different knock sensors?
I know the 4g63 and 4g64 knock sensors are different, as seen with a multimeter. You can set it on A/C voltage and then knock the tip with a spanner or screwdriver. I found the 4g64 produced a lot less voltage than the 4g63 model.
Maybe this could be an idea for people who are maxing out their knock sensor voltage.
I know the 4g63 and 4g64 knock sensors are different, as seen with a multimeter. You can set it on A/C voltage and then knock the tip with a spanner or screwdriver. I found the 4g64 produced a lot less voltage than the 4g63 model.
Maybe this could be an idea for people who are maxing out their knock sensor voltage.
Dec 26, 2010, 11:14 PM
#71
have you guys tried different knock sensors?
I know the 4g63 and 4g64 knock sensors are different, as seen with a multimeter. You can set it on A/C voltage and then knock the tip with a spanner or screwdriver. I found the 4g64 produced a lot less voltage than the 4g63 model.
Maybe this could be an idea for people who are maxing out their knock sensor voltage.
I know the 4g63 and 4g64 knock sensors are different, as seen with a multimeter. You can set it on A/C voltage and then knock the tip with a spanner or screwdriver. I found the 4g64 produced a lot less voltage than the 4g63 model.
Maybe this could be an idea for people who are maxing out their knock sensor voltage.
I'm not referring this to you Mike, but the guy above clearly dont know how to adjust a knock sensor if hes saying he maxed them out before.. that makes absolutely NO sense at all.
I can adjust the multipliers so high that the sensor wont pick up ANY knock.. now tell me how the hell are you maxing out a knock sensor if you have the ability to adjust its tolerances and noise detection? If you're maxing out an adjustable knock sensor you need to step away from what you're doing.
The stock knock sensor is more then safe for any setup imo. Maybe its overly sensitive stock.. who cares? thats why you adjust the multipliers and set it up for its new noise environment.
Again going back to something that can make it no longer useable? not possible.. Its threaded into the back of the block .. you think you can make an external part be noisier then something thats actually threaded into the actual block? no..
All you're doing is showing you dont understand the concepts here. I have real experience with phantom knock on multiple cars, so i know how to work with the sensor and still attain its ability to function properly.
Just did a guy with a quartermaster clutch, he had 10 counts everywhere.. had him rev up in neutral was showing consistent knock with a super safe timing map and fuel map.. so i adjusted the multiplier until it stopped or went down to 1 count and went from there.. I deal with phantom knock on every single car I tune just about and im sure other tuners do also. so this isnt no new information here.
We all have our own data we like to log, i choose not to log volt and its sure as hell not needed to be logged in order to adjust multipliers.. so dont make it look like it is.
Dec 26, 2010, 11:43 PM
#72
i think i know what they mean though Tom.
If you knock sensor outputs a maximum of 5v, you cannot adjust that physical output.
you can adjust the tables etc so that 5v doesn't give you knock count.
But like you said, you dont log Knock voltage. If you already had the knock sensor maxed out @ 5v, and you get actual KNOCK, then it will not pick it up.
This is just why i mentioned that there are different knock sensors.
If you can get more voltage "resolution", then thats good right??
just my 2c
If you knock sensor outputs a maximum of 5v, you cannot adjust that physical output.
you can adjust the tables etc so that 5v doesn't give you knock count.
But like you said, you dont log Knock voltage. If you already had the knock sensor maxed out @ 5v, and you get actual KNOCK, then it will not pick it up.
This is just why i mentioned that there are different knock sensors.
If you can get more voltage "resolution", then thats good right??
just my 2c
Dec 26, 2010, 11:50 PM
#73
i think i know what they mean though Tom.
If you knock sensor outputs a maximum of 5v, you cannot adjust that physical output.
you can adjust the tables etc so that 5v doesn't give you knock count.
But like you said, you dont log Knock voltage. If you already had the knock sensor maxed out @ 5v, and you get actual KNOCK, then it will not pick it up.
This is just why i mentioned that there are different knock sensors.
If you can get more voltage "resolution", then thats good right??
just my 2c
If you knock sensor outputs a maximum of 5v, you cannot adjust that physical output.
you can adjust the tables etc so that 5v doesn't give you knock count.
But like you said, you dont log Knock voltage. If you already had the knock sensor maxed out @ 5v, and you get actual KNOCK, then it will not pick it up.
This is just why i mentioned that there are different knock sensors.
If you can get more voltage "resolution", then thats good right??
just my 2c
ill research into it more, i could be wrong about the voltage.. it may be the opposite, but then it wouldn't make any sense..
if it worked like this: the higher the multipler the more it ignores actual voltage.. that would be pretty stupid on mitsubishi's part.
i cant see it not adjusting voltage levels based on multipliers it just seems wrong. although Aaron's 3.9v makes it seem so. why mitsubishi would design something that had the ability to max out and disable itself prematurely tho is beyond me.
Last edited by tscompusa2; Dec 26, 2010 at 11:55 PM.
Dec 27, 2010, 01:15 AM
#74
k so i just read https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...ble-found.html - read it before also just was awhile ago.
nothing im doing is wrong. using knocksum + multipliers. (The day I max out the factory knock sensor is the day I stop tuning cars and driving them)
If you read that you will see knock voltage (knock filt adc) and knockbase work together to actually produce knocksum.. so knocksum is more powerful then logging knock voltage when its all said and done.
heres some good info from jcsbanks: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...e-found-5.html
heres the patent to the knock sensor also:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=K5w...page&q&f=false
nothing im doing is wrong. using knocksum + multipliers. (The day I max out the factory knock sensor is the day I stop tuning cars and driving them)
If you read that you will see knock voltage (knock filt adc) and knockbase work together to actually produce knocksum.. so knocksum is more powerful then logging knock voltage when its all said and done.
heres some good info from jcsbanks: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...e-found-5.html
So it is a full throttle pull from 3000 RPM to 7000 RPM approx (x-axis).
The very spiky trace in blue is the knock voltage if you like. I presume it will be bandpass filtered and rectified. Then a gated integrator of the knock sensor signal for each ignition event.
Yellow is a moving average of the knock voltage. Cyan is a moving average of that. This is then used to calculate knockbase which is in magenta.
The mult, add1 and add2 are looked up by RPM from the tables I posted earlier in this thread.
Knockbase=(mult*knockvar2/8) + Add1 or Add2
Add1 is used before the gain is reduced (at about knockbase 140 or about 4800 RPM on this particular trace), Add2 is used after the gain is reduced.
Testing this for example at 6000 RPM reading the numbers off the graph:
knockbase=(19*40/8)+7=102 which is about what knockbase actually is on the graph at about 6000 RPM.
The very spiky trace in blue is the knock voltage if you like. I presume it will be bandpass filtered and rectified. Then a gated integrator of the knock sensor signal for each ignition event.
Yellow is a moving average of the knock voltage. Cyan is a moving average of that. This is then used to calculate knockbase which is in magenta.
The mult, add1 and add2 are looked up by RPM from the tables I posted earlier in this thread.
Knockbase=(mult*knockvar2/8) + Add1 or Add2
Add1 is used before the gain is reduced (at about knockbase 140 or about 4800 RPM on this particular trace), Add2 is used after the gain is reduced.
Testing this for example at 6000 RPM reading the numbers off the graph:
knockbase=(19*40/8)+7=102 which is about what knockbase actually is on the graph at about 6000 RPM.
Once knockbase is calculated, the calculation of the increase in knocksum (if there is more than a small difference between knockfiladc and knockbase) is:
(x*(knockfiltadc-knockbase)/(knockbase*8))+1 clipped to 7, with the knocksum itself being clipped to 36. x has two values - 16 or 32 depending on whether you are below or above the load threshold table that started this thread off.
On some ECUs the increase in knocksum is clipped to 0 if you are below the load threshold, which effectively disables any increase in knocksum below that load. In others it appears unclipped, but will still be less than half as sensitive.
There are other fine details that are not terribly important.
(x*(knockfiltadc-knockbase)/(knockbase*8))+1 clipped to 7, with the knocksum itself being clipped to 36. x has two values - 16 or 32 depending on whether you are below or above the load threshold table that started this thread off.
On some ECUs the increase in knocksum is clipped to 0 if you are below the load threshold, which effectively disables any increase in knocksum below that load. In others it appears unclipped, but will still be less than half as sensitive.
There are other fine details that are not terribly important.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=K5w...page&q&f=false
Last edited by tscompusa2; Dec 27, 2010 at 01:50 AM.
Dec 27, 2010, 03:46 AM
#75
looks like you've done your research!! 
whats that spike in voltage @ 4800rpm? engine resonance/vibration? Or knock?
I'm pretty sure that part about the knock sensor voltage being adjustable is wrong. The knock sensor is just a microphone, you cannot adjust it's output. Of course you can adjust what the computer calculates, but the knock sensor voltage (coming out of the knock sensor) isn't actually adjustable. It's just a wire with a shield, no adjustable components.
Didn't JB specifically state that he has maxed out Knock voltage?
whats that spike in voltage @ 4800rpm? engine resonance/vibration? Or knock?
I'm pretty sure that part about the knock sensor voltage being adjustable is wrong. The knock sensor is just a microphone, you cannot adjust it's output. Of course you can adjust what the computer calculates, but the knock sensor voltage (coming out of the knock sensor) isn't actually adjustable. It's just a wire with a shield, no adjustable components.
Didn't JB specifically state that he has maxed out Knock voltage?