makaveli_31

iTrader: (4)

Erik,

I have no issue with what you said and I would like to think that we are just having a shopfloor discussion over the internet. All I was trying to say in the original post is that the two cars were quite similar and that the different, a new intake, at most made an impact of about 5-10 hp. I don't think the remainder of the results should be somehow invalidated because I had added an intake.

Eric Lyublinsky

iTrader: (5)

I agree the results speak well. But I would have loved to see your car the same as it was at Pruven.

It would really open some eyes.

wingless

iTrader: (15)

Wow... Sorry to kind derail this thread w/ the intake question....But this is all great info. I dig my RS intake but admitedly becuase (IMO) it sounds and looks cool. However I'll ditch it in a second if I think it is adversely affecting performance. Kind of bugs me Vish, Works and a few others keep the factory box. It sounds as if for MAF tuning anyway, stock box creates a more predictable flow, thus allows finer tuning....?? Is this the consensus?

Eric Lyublinsky

iTrader: (5)

Well bottom line intakes affect A/Fs witch would affect performance and tuning. So instead of having to make diffrent maps for all intakes and test out a bunch of cars until they have a good base map just does not make sense for the tuner to invest so much time. Also Vishnu claims a I agree intakes don't make more power on the stock turbo.

Eric

makaveli_31

iTrader: (4)

I will have to disagree with Eric on the INtake. You can see from my dynosheets that the intake gained me about 5 hp from pruven to TT. I did lose a good deal of torque down low however. Keep in mind that this is with no engine retune inbetween, so it may be possible to keep the torque had I let Al retune the car prior to me going to TT.

fury656

iTrader: (6)

Seems to be the definite consenus, I witnessed a car with the HKS RS kit in put down 230whp with a XEDE base map then 300whp with some fine tuning and a stock airbox. I wouldn't say that one makes more or less power, although I'd assume that the stock airbox would allow you to make slightly more torque. My estimation of the situation atleast from what I saw with the the XEDE side of things is that Vishnu has its XEDE base maps calibrated for the stock airbox and to individually account for each point which is errored its simply not worthwhile for the marginal gains you would see. Same principles go for the Works Flash, UTEC, etc. Short ram intakes to me are just noise and nothing more, intake systems on a turbo car are better seen then heard.

makaveli_31

iTrader: (4)

I think it would be of great benefit to the Evo Community if the two of you could put together a combined tune and then sell it identically at your two locations. I think with all the data you guys must have gathered by now at this point, you guys can probably make improvements over both of your products.

Anybody else think I'm on to something?

prostockCRX

I do appreciate the respectful tenure of this thread. I wanted to state a few points that bothered me after reading this thread, to try and set the record staight. We are HKS Authorized Pro Dealers and have a lot of experience with the HKS RS Intake Kit. It does NOT loose low end trq. Here is a typical example of a Dyno Flashed car done on our dyno, same exact modifications, stock air box vs. HKS RS Kit



As you can see, after the ecu is remapped for the leaner reading HKS RS Kit the tq and low end is virtually identical. The HKS RS KIT Only picks up a slight edge on top end power were the stock air box is restricting the flow of air. The main point to be made is that most aftermarket intakes alter the reading of the mass air flow sensor and you need to re-tune after you change intakes.

In this case, it is IMPOSSIBLE to draw any conclusions about Dyno Flash vs. Turbo Tricks flash becuase the Dyno Flash tuning was done on the stock air box. After you change the intake to the HKS RS with a Dyno Flash tune, your a/f ratio goes very lean in the mid range as shown in the dyno sheet. This ultra lean a/f leads to lower tq becuase the ecu is pulling ignition timing and without the timing down low the car will loose tq.

If you want to draw any conclusions about how the HKS RS kit works with a Dyno Flash, then this gentleman should return and get the custom tune done again by Dyno Flash and I would wager that the same whp would be made while restoring the lost low end tq.



Generally, I would like to note that it seems the Turbo Tricks flash uses a much leaner a/f ratio, approaching 12.0 / 1 than Dyno Flash which we usually see at 11.1 / 1. Of course with a leaner a/f ratio more power will be made. IMHO it is not an issue of one being "better" than the other. It is rather a judgment by the tuner where is a safe place to draw the line between power and saftey. IMHO anything over 11.5 / 1 on a pump gas tune does not leave enough of a margin of saftey. Also, we have seen that when tuning leaner than 11.5 / 1 on the stock ecu we do start to see a larger occurance of knock activity and pulling of timing which makes for a very rough power band over time. (NOT GOOD) We've seen this time and time again.
ken@pruven

Eric Lyublinsky

iTrader: (5)

That's exactly right and that is my point from the begining.

Eric Lyublinsky

iTrader: (5)

Can we see some dyno sheets with A/Fs for examples? Thank you

prostockCRX

Sure, brb

unless this thread gets locked, as they do whenever something positive is said about pruven or dynoflash.

be back in 10
ken@pruven

EvoJimbo

iTrader: (6)

ERic,

Makaveli's initial post states that he recommends both tuners as their results are similar. Why go into technicialities of which tune was more credible?

Either way I think both tuners have a great product.

Zeus

iTrader: (66)

It's nice to see a civil thread on this topic for a change... It would be a great dis-service to the Evo community if this thread were locked, or moved. People who normally can't keep their tongue, are doing so and agreeing or disagreeing in a respectful manner... we are all benefiting from the useful exchange of information. Maybe there is hope for Sodom yet?

I'd like a custom tune from either of these tuners, as regardless of which one is "better", your still going to come out ahead. Too bad I'm so far away... and missed Al when he was here. Is TT ever going to hit the road?

PS I put much more stock in "road tunes" for a "road car"...

Eric Lyublinsky

iTrader: (5)

I did not go into technicialities on witch tune is better I simple expressed my point of veiw why they guy lost TQ after the intake and that you can't compare a tune with out a intake to a the same tune now with a intake. It's not whos better at tunning just a clarifaction to the readers what happened.

Now are you done wasting band with?

DocMortal

iTrader: (5)

Al recommends the HKS Intake, with his special intake tune the car felt like it actually had bit more torque and generally felt more power.

What I know is you get any intake you have to get it tuned.

The both great tuners in my opinion but AL got the HKS RS Suction tune down packed

I was always with keeping the stock airbox but im glad I got rid of it for the suction kit,butt dyno feels more power low and high, but take it with a grain of salt,its just what I felt...From skylines,supras,Rx7,twin turbo z's all use open elements in the engine bay...if there was something wrong they would of
designed all these cars with cold air intakes....

Al also did a dyno with stock air box vs hks ... HKS gained 11 hp

Still pretty good info thx for posting