View Poll Results: Xede or P2?
Xede
66
70.97%
P2
27
29.03%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll
Vishnu Xede Vs. Works P2
Oct 26, 2004, 10:46 AM
#31
Originally Posted by Zeus
I'm one of those who plain and simple, don't like piggy back systems on the Evo... I'm not saying they don't have a place, but to sell them to persons who are not qualified (figure of speech) to own them is irresponsible. 90% of Evo owners have little business playing with fuel and timing maps.
All piggyback devices are not created with equal capabilities, but they do in fact reflect the extent of understanding of their creators. As far as the piggyback device in question (Xede), I have yet to see anything about it, including its reliability record, that indicates a shortcoming. In short, aside from a standalone, it is the premier means of extracting every bit of potential power from any application, and in some cases that potential power is quite significant. I agree however that the best route to take is to buy such a device only if one plans on having it tuned on a dyno, by a competent individual. If not, one should forego the thought entirely and get one of several available flashes, and simply accept some degree of compromise.
Oct 26, 2004, 10:52 AM
#32
Originally Posted by Zeus
I'm one of those who plain and simple, don't like piggy back systems on the Evo... I'm not saying they don't have a place, but to sell them to persons who are not qualified (figure of speech) to own them is irresponsible. 90% of Evo owners have little business playing with fuel and timing maps. There are more than a few "I blew my motor" posts floating around. That is not a "holier than thou" attitude as you can see I also run a flash. We are all entitled to our opinions, and that is mine.
)) Can you point me to some Xede I blew my motor posts? BTW How do you feel about the safety of reflashes these days?
Oct 26, 2004, 10:56 AM
#34
Originally Posted by EM@WORKS
It depends on one's definition of "failsafe."
Piggy backs basically alter a signal and lie to the input of the ECU which in turn causes the ECU to output a different response.
For instance, a frequency from the VAF is sent to the piggy-back. From there, the piggy-back changes the frequency and sends it off to the ECU. The ECU takes this "new" frequency and adjusts injector duty cycle among other variables.
In many applications, piggy backs can work quite well. Especially in older ECUs. Unfortunately the EVO ECU is a bit more sensitive.
One good example where fooling the ECU may not be a great idea is the fuel power relay the EVO ECU controls depending on it's input signals. During normal "low load" operation, the fuel power relay is on and power going to the fuel pump passes through a resistor thusly lowering the output potential of the pump. When the ECU receives correct direct signals from the engine's sensors, it uses complex algorithms to switch to "high load". During "high load" (as defined by many variables in the ECU), the fuel power relay is turned off, the resistor is bypassed, and more power is allowed to pass to the fuel pump letting it operate normally. Therefore with all the power going directly to the fuel pump, you won't run into a lean condition which is often band-aided or masked by a higher output fuel pump. To keep things simple, the stock EVO fuel pump operating normally can flow enough fuel for approximately 400HP.
When using an external device to fool the stock ECU like a piggy-back, the ECU may never switch to "high load", the fuel relay may never switch off, and the pump will forever be running in low power lean mode.
There are many other examples where fooling the stock ECU is not "safe" in our eyes. Even we don't fully understand ALL of the intricacies within the factory ECU but we believe our Engineers understand more than most outside of Mitsubishi.
Piggy backs basically alter a signal and lie to the input of the ECU which in turn causes the ECU to output a different response.
For instance, a frequency from the VAF is sent to the piggy-back. From there, the piggy-back changes the frequency and sends it off to the ECU. The ECU takes this "new" frequency and adjusts injector duty cycle among other variables.
In many applications, piggy backs can work quite well. Especially in older ECUs. Unfortunately the EVO ECU is a bit more sensitive.
One good example where fooling the ECU may not be a great idea is the fuel power relay the EVO ECU controls depending on it's input signals. During normal "low load" operation, the fuel power relay is on and power going to the fuel pump passes through a resistor thusly lowering the output potential of the pump. When the ECU receives correct direct signals from the engine's sensors, it uses complex algorithms to switch to "high load". During "high load" (as defined by many variables in the ECU), the fuel power relay is turned off, the resistor is bypassed, and more power is allowed to pass to the fuel pump letting it operate normally. Therefore with all the power going directly to the fuel pump, you won't run into a lean condition which is often band-aided or masked by a higher output fuel pump. To keep things simple, the stock EVO fuel pump operating normally can flow enough fuel for approximately 400HP.
When using an external device to fool the stock ECU like a piggy-back, the ECU may never switch to "high load", the fuel relay may never switch off, and the pump will forever be running in low power lean mode.
There are many other examples where fooling the stock ECU is not "safe" in our eyes. Even we don't fully understand ALL of the intricacies within the factory ECU but we believe our Engineers understand more than most outside of Mitsubishi.
I love it. Which piggyback are you talking of and were did you read that?
Oct 26, 2004, 11:03 AM
#35
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I really don't have any plans on doing any tuning on my own, but I really like the results that Vishnu has had in the past... so do I need an XFlash or is that not as good as the Works P1 or P2 whatever.
PS- I was leaning towards Works before I read into Vishnu more and saw alot of things that sounded good to me. All I am saying is that I am not definitely going either way, but I just want to make the right decision.
PS- I was leaning towards Works before I read into Vishnu more and saw alot of things that sounded good to me. All I am saying is that I am not definitely going either way, but I just want to make the right decision.
Last edited by eclipsegs2k1; Oct 26, 2004 at 11:09 AM.
Oct 26, 2004, 11:06 AM
#37
Originally Posted by David@Vishnu
Weve had this conversation over beers before havent we? Still it wasnt explained the actual whys and hows of reasoning but just that you didnt like piggyback systems (which is quite outdated term for the xede that clamps nothing and uses offsets and predictive logic literally an order of magnitude faster than the stock computer (cant use something faster than the stock computer? )) Can you point me to some Xede I blew my motor posts? BTW How do you feel about the safety of reflashes these days?
)) Can you point me to some Xede I blew my motor posts? BTW How do you feel about the safety of reflashes these days?
. I hope the general readership understands that my general dislike of these (not just the Xede) devices comes not from the device itself, but the inability for most to properly use the devise. That is any user adjustable devise if I'm not clear... including excellent products like the AEM EMS down to a simple AFC. I'd say short of a stand alone, the Xede is probably the best way to fly for those with the know how. My point was not directed at the Xede, but anything the unexperienced end user could screw up. I'm also not implying that the users are stupid... again my own car is flashed. I am flat out saying that many of the broken motor posts more than likely can truly be attributed to poor/incorrect tuning by the user themselves.
Oct 26, 2004, 11:06 AM
#38
people can blow their cars up just as easily with a boost controller as they can with a piggyback system. either way, its the touch of a button away. you can't expect the people who sell and tune these units to try and weed out the retards now can you?
Oct 26, 2004, 11:08 AM
#39
Originally Posted by Zeus
David, I hope you know me better than that. We have shared way to few beers by the way . I hope the general readership understands that my general dislike of these (not just the Xede) devices comes not from the device itself, but the inability for most to properly use the devise. That is any user adjustable devise if I'm not clear... including excellent products like the AEM EMS down to a simple AFC. I'd say short of a stand alone, the Xede is probably the best way to fly for those with the know how. My point was not directed at the Xede, but anything the unexperienced end user could screw up. I'm also not implying that the users are stupid... again my own car is flashed. I am flat out saying that many of the broken motor posts more than likely can truly be attributed to poor/incorrect tuning by the user themselves.
. I hope the general readership understands that my general dislike of these (not just the Xede) devices comes not from the device itself, but the inability for most to properly use the devise. That is any user adjustable devise if I'm not clear... including excellent products like the AEM EMS down to a simple AFC. I'd say short of a stand alone, the Xede is probably the best way to fly for those with the know how. My point was not directed at the Xede, but anything the unexperienced end user could screw up. I'm also not implying that the users are stupid... again my own car is flashed. I am flat out saying that many of the broken motor posts more than likely can truly be attributed to poor/incorrect tuning by the user themselves. Gotta get back down there Im losing too much weight (ie no Tex Mex)
Last edited by David@Vishnu; Oct 26, 2004 at 11:12 AM.
Oct 26, 2004, 11:10 AM
#40
PS Good one about reflashes David... with recent events we are both privey to, I'm not sure how I feel about that particular tuner. The timing he produced wouldn't seem to produce the problem... then again, I have no way of knowing if that indeed was true. I'll let you know how I feel about the other tuner mid Dec. You can bet I'll be looking over his shoulder!
Oct 26, 2004, 11:16 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by jansolo
What are your goals with your car? Answer that and then you can start making decisions on what to go with.
). Also, either way, the car has to be reliable in extremely hot summers and has to be driven everyday. Cost isn't really a huge factor. So, what would be the best for those two projects?? Oh, and I wouldn't be doing ANY tuning myself and there isn't a dyno anywhere near me, but I could go to Atlanta or somewhere in Georgia to do that if I had to. Thanks everyone. 
Oct 26, 2004, 11:29 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by gsujeff55
i think dyno4mance is a liscenced xede tuner in the ATL area, may want to ask him what he thinks. he answered my questions quite promptly with good answers.
Trust me, I've read over much of what has already been posted, but this issue that EM brought up on this page seems legitamite to me so I just want to know what is really something I need to worry about and what isn't. Thank you for your reply though, I appreciate it!
Last edited by eclipsegs2k1; Oct 26, 2004 at 11:31 AM.
Oct 26, 2004, 11:44 AM
#44
basically, this is what ive gathered. the xede is basically like a flash(for your purposes), EXCEPT if you aren't capable of tuning it, you can A) Take the car to the dyno in ATL and let them tune it(which you will only need if you change mods really), or B) send it back to vishnu and let them put new maps on it. Also, you get more than one map(not sure if works does that or not), so you can go from a pump gas to race gas map with the flip of a switch. Personally, i think its the best of both worlds, more tunability than sending your whole ECU in everytime you need something done....and less crap to deal with than a standalone. that is just my take on it though, i have neather, but have been shopping around....so i have no personal experience. so if im off base here fellas, i appologize.