All tunners on EVOM what our opinion on road tunning?
Dec 7, 2004, 02:15 PM
#16
Evolved Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jason@NTEC
yea but al is not tuning at the track, he tuning on public roads.
I know thats impossible unles syou drive your car like a caddy. Stop putting a spin on things here.
Road tuning offers real world replication that a dyno could never offer. If it is done on a desolate road with little to no traffic and no foot traffic its not that bad. This is comming from a ex-law enforcement officer.
Now the tuners that have a dyno will say otherwise, since they have a 20-60k tool that they have to use to pay the bills.
Nobody is idiotic enough to tune there car in a neigborhood or high traffic area
Dec 7, 2004, 02:19 PM
#17
Evolving Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2004
Location: denton
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by chapter8
let me ask you something, you ALWAYS abide the speed limit?
I know thats impossible unles syou drive your car like a caddy. Stop putting a spin on things here.
Road tuning offers real world replication that a dyno could never offer. If it is done on a desolate road with little to no traffic and no foot traffic its not that bad. This is comming from a ex-law enforcement officer.
Now the tuners that have a dyno will say otherwise, since they have a 20-60k tool that they have to use to pay the bills.
Nobody is idiotic enough to tune there car in a neigborhood or high traffic area
I know thats impossible unles syou drive your car like a caddy. Stop putting a spin on things here.
Road tuning offers real world replication that a dyno could never offer. If it is done on a desolate road with little to no traffic and no foot traffic its not that bad. This is comming from a ex-law enforcement officer.
Now the tuners that have a dyno will say otherwise, since they have a 20-60k tool that they have to use to pay the bills.
Nobody is idiotic enough to tune there car in a neigborhood or high traffic area
lets compare oranges to oranges, not oranges to apples.
im not saying road tuning isnt the way to go, im saying that trying to tune a car on public roads vs. on a track is dangerous.
Last edited by jason@NTEC; Dec 7, 2004 at 02:29 PM.
Dec 7, 2004, 02:26 PM
#19
Originally Posted by Dom
Tuning the car at the track is a great point.
What does a dyno tune help me when I run 30min WOOT and see temps I never
had during dyno testing. That's not only a tuning question but also the only way to
know if the bigger i/c or radiator or brake ducts or whatever works.
In my opinion it's the tuner's job to tell me if I am fine without oil cooler or stock radiator
or whatever. Not only to tune my engine to max with dangerous ingnition and a single drop of fuel missing and killing my engine at least.
Now I have to find a tuner wanting to hit the track with me ;-)
What does a dyno tune help me when I run 30min WOOT and see temps I never
had during dyno testing. That's not only a tuning question but also the only way to
know if the bigger i/c or radiator or brake ducts or whatever works.
In my opinion it's the tuner's job to tell me if I am fine without oil cooler or stock radiator
or whatever. Not only to tune my engine to max with dangerous ingnition and a single drop of fuel missing and killing my engine at least.
Now I have to find a tuner wanting to hit the track with me ;-)
However, I'd like to address the point you make. You are 100% correct in that some conditions encountered in the track cannot be easily duplicated with the Dyno (relatively long periods of time at WOT). But, I would question the necessity of such tests for the vast majority of people who are buying road tuning or dyno tuning from various tuners.
My guess is that most people who get these road & dyno tunes will never put their cars on a track and drive them at WOT for very long periods of time. Also, I'm a little annoyed at all the self righteous people who castigate the "road tuners" for their "criminal" practices. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of these "angels" or scrupulous "law abiders" are not as pure as they'd like to think and certainly should not be casting stones
Anyway, for my purposes the dyno is the only tool that can actually verify what changes if any have occurred as a result of the "tuning". Sure, after the car is dyno tuned, it could certainly be fine tuned on the tarmac. But I cannot see how a road tune could be done with any certainty of results without a dyno run verification.
Dec 7, 2004, 02:40 PM
#20
i've admitted to speeding...and claim to be no angel. but if and when i speed i provide my full attention to the road. not to a laptop or pda. i originally wanted to start this post to determine the benefits of road tuning. but snoop beat me too it. can an experienced tuner please elaborate on the benefits of road tuning?
thank you
vincent
thank you
vincent
Dec 7, 2004, 02:46 PM
#21
Tune it on the dyno (engine or chassis). Then fine tune it on the road if that's where you are going to use it, or on the track if that's your gig. And if you need WOT on road or track leave enough saftey margin for that to be possible. And if you are driving the vehicle keep it safe regardless where. But please no endless preaching about how fast is safe and where .... speed limits are not necessarily about saftey.
Dec 7, 2004, 03:05 PM
#22
Evolved Member
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Stafford, VA
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will add my imput on this since Al road tuned my car:
I was a bit nervous getting my car road tuned thinking that Al would be playing w/ a laptop and wideband while hauling *** down the street.
That wasn't the case at all. First thing Al secured all monitors and gadgets (mainly me holding everything (lol)) then we took the car out and he did a third gear pull to see where my car was at stock. Then we stopped in a desolate parking lot and Al went through the data that was collected and made any changes that he found necessary.
Then we went out again for a third gear pull after all was clear and again we stopped in a desolate parking lot and he analyzed the data, made changes and such.
After about an half hour or so we went out to do 4th and 5th gear "real world" simulations and he let me take the car out and see how it felt after Al deemed everything A-OK.
I received a call on my cell about 2hrs later from Al making sure that I was happy w/ my car and I gave him the verbal two thumbs up and I went home.
I really don't see the "very, very" dangerous part in that. I have done much worse and all while staring at my boost gauge checking to make sure I set my MBC correctly.
I was a bit nervous getting my car road tuned thinking that Al would be playing w/ a laptop and wideband while hauling *** down the street.
That wasn't the case at all. First thing Al secured all monitors and gadgets (mainly me holding everything (lol)) then we took the car out and he did a third gear pull to see where my car was at stock. Then we stopped in a desolate parking lot and Al went through the data that was collected and made any changes that he found necessary.
Then we went out again for a third gear pull after all was clear and again we stopped in a desolate parking lot and he analyzed the data, made changes and such.
After about an half hour or so we went out to do 4th and 5th gear "real world" simulations and he let me take the car out and see how it felt after Al deemed everything A-OK.
I received a call on my cell about 2hrs later from Al making sure that I was happy w/ my car and I gave him the verbal two thumbs up and I went home.
I really don't see the "very, very" dangerous part in that. I have done much worse and all while staring at my boost gauge checking to make sure I set my MBC correctly.
Dec 7, 2004, 03:10 PM
#23
When I tune an engine from scratch on motec or autronic or whatever, I road tune it w/ a motec plm, working on the idle first, then various loads. after the base map is created i let the engine cool down and do the cold start. from that point i bring it on the dyno to do final tuning w/ ignition and small fuel corrections. this usally saves the customer from spending too much money on the dyno. To get a car tuned near stock, it isn't an either or situation (dyno or street) you should do both.
I usually have another person drive the car, ideally the owner, or i will datalog the session and pull over to make changes when I've grabbed enough data or when i see the motec plm run a/f's i don't like.
If I already have a base map to work with from previous tunes that makes the process is a lot faster.
The benefits of street tuning is that it saves money on the dyno.
You can hold the speed steady on the highway for fuel economy tuning.
You can run the engine thru various gears and apply compensations if there is variance.
You can tune out hesitation/twitchiness between off and on throttle transitions.
Ideally, I also tune at the racetrack after the dyno session.
I usually have another person drive the car, ideally the owner, or i will datalog the session and pull over to make changes when I've grabbed enough data or when i see the motec plm run a/f's i don't like.
If I already have a base map to work with from previous tunes that makes the process is a lot faster.
The benefits of street tuning is that it saves money on the dyno.
You can hold the speed steady on the highway for fuel economy tuning.
You can run the engine thru various gears and apply compensations if there is variance.
You can tune out hesitation/twitchiness between off and on throttle transitions.
Ideally, I also tune at the racetrack after the dyno session.
Last edited by EFIxMR; Dec 7, 2004 at 03:12 PM.
Dec 7, 2004, 03:31 PM
#24
Evolved Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by EFIxMR
When I tune an engine from scratch on motec or autronic or whatever, I road tune it w/ a motec plm, working on the idle first, then various loads. after the base map is created i let the engine cool down and do the cold start. from that point i bring it on the dyno to do final tuning w/ ignition and small fuel corrections. this usally saves the customer from spending too much money on the dyno. To get a car tuned near stock, it isn't an either or situation (dyno or street) you should do both.
I usually have another person drive the car, ideally the owner, or i will datalog the session and pull over to make changes when I've grabbed enough data or when i see the motec plm run a/f's i don't like.
If I already have a base map to work with from previous tunes that makes the process is a lot faster.
The benefits of street tuning is that it saves money on the dyno.
You can hold the speed steady on the highway for fuel economy tuning.
You can run the engine thru various gears and apply compensations if there is variance.
You can tune out hesitation/twitchiness between off and on throttle transitions.
Ideally, I also tune at the racetrack after the dyno session.
I usually have another person drive the car, ideally the owner, or i will datalog the session and pull over to make changes when I've grabbed enough data or when i see the motec plm run a/f's i don't like.
If I already have a base map to work with from previous tunes that makes the process is a lot faster.
The benefits of street tuning is that it saves money on the dyno.
You can hold the speed steady on the highway for fuel economy tuning.
You can run the engine thru various gears and apply compensations if there is variance.
You can tune out hesitation/twitchiness between off and on throttle transitions.
Ideally, I also tune at the racetrack after the dyno session.
Dec 7, 2004, 03:53 PM
#25
A qualified tuner can do both. When an evo customer comes to me with the option of a road tune or a dyno tune we try and get him to go with the street tune. Biggest reason being cost. we are still a 2wd dyno facility so the conversion adds an additional $300 to the bill. The street also gives the customer a mose accurate load rating. Can produce better load that if you are actually driving it on the street. Really the only downside to street tuning lies in the hands of the tuner.
1. Speeding tickets...they suck
2. Safety...which is why we dont let the customers come with.
3. weather conditions, It often hinders the tune..if not prevents it.
as far as accuracy goes. A qualified tuner should be able to get just as accurate a tune on the street as he can on the dyno. Being a tuner and I think we are not alone on this. If we had the choice there is nothing like the comfort of the dyno.
Eric
1. Speeding tickets...they suck
2. Safety...which is why we dont let the customers come with.
3. weather conditions, It often hinders the tune..if not prevents it.
as far as accuracy goes. A qualified tuner should be able to get just as accurate a tune on the street as he can on the dyno. Being a tuner and I think we are not alone on this. If we had the choice there is nothing like the comfort of the dyno.
Eric
Dec 7, 2004, 04:26 PM
#26
Evolved Member
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Blairstown, NJ
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
atleast whith the EMS my road tuning goes like the destription of Dynoflash's session.
setup the internal datalogger to record all the relevant info
go drive the car.
stop in a lit parking lot, download the log to the laptop
review the log and make changes
back to the top of list.
I generally do 3rd gear pulls from 2000rpm up to 7500. Im definatly speeding and would certianly get a ticket. Fortunatly I do my tuning on nice country roads at 2-4am. The last time I went out for a session on friday night for about 2 full hours, I saw one car on the road...a delivery truck. Does it make it ok to speed during these times: no. Does it minimize the risk...yes.
the laptop does all the logging and watching. I just have to watch the road and make sure the road is strait and flat so the HP calculations are precise.
setup the internal datalogger to record all the relevant info
go drive the car.
stop in a lit parking lot, download the log to the laptop
review the log and make changes
back to the top of list.
I generally do 3rd gear pulls from 2000rpm up to 7500. Im definatly speeding and would certianly get a ticket. Fortunatly I do my tuning on nice country roads at 2-4am. The last time I went out for a session on friday night for about 2 full hours, I saw one car on the road...a delivery truck. Does it make it ok to speed during these times: no. Does it minimize the risk...yes.
the laptop does all the logging and watching. I just have to watch the road and make sure the road is strait and flat so the HP calculations are precise.
Dec 7, 2004, 04:35 PM
#27
Evolved Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,529
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by jason@NTEC
let me ask you something, do you drive over 100mph and at the same time tune a vehicle.
Dec 7, 2004, 04:42 PM
#28
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Edison
Posts: 2,742
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Worst case scenario, your " road tuning " with your customer and you crash, you kill someone in another car, and you kill the passenger ... IE the customer. You would be facing vehicular manslaughter charges and would be sued civily. I'm no angel and i've done both, but if given a choice i'll take the dyno everytime. Its just not worth risking everything, when you have access to a dyno. I know justin from pro-tech visits panama alot, where they dont have a dyno, what can you do. The whole idea of having a dyno is to keep off the street.
My .02 cents
Mark
Turbotrix
My .02 cents
Mark
Turbotrix
Dec 7, 2004, 05:08 PM
#29
Account Disabled
iTrader: (91)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Posts: 16,850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will be posting a long discussion on this thread later tonight after I have had time to draft it
BOTH dyno tune and road tune are useful
For the reflash - and limited to that method of tuning only - people fail to realize that I already spend hundreds of hours and thousands and thousands of dollars of $ on the dyno when I first got the reflash and over the past year developing the ignition timing profiles and other critical aspects of the Dyno Flash. I have already done extensive R & D to make hundreds of base maps for various combinations of modifications. Once you have already dyno tuned a Evo with HKS RS Intake, 3 " Exhaust, MBC and fuel pump like on 40 - 50 diferent individual evos you start to get a very close base map. 99.999 % of my tuning is spent FINE adjusting the settings to match the individual car and fuel used.
IMHO - on MY reflashes - its a waste of money of the customer to pay for dyno time - IF they have a configuration that we already have a lot of base maps for. Getting a perrfect tune in those examples is simply a matter of making the small adjustments needed to make sure the a/f and timing are correct.
In other words - we have moved beyond basic research on our tunes to see what the timing profile is and what the effects on the VE are with various kinds of cams and parts - we already did that.
Finally - I like to take my time and spend 2 full hours per car to nail down ALL 4 gears and make sure no detonation apprears under normal driving.
IN MOST CASES - my total fee for the flash and the custom tuning is equal to what most shops would charge you for the 2 hours of dyno time needed. I am trying to offer a good tune - and also at a fair price. I charge people geting a 2 hour custom retune $299 ($399 for a new customer) - (which is less than some others charge for a through the mail base flash) and I cover the travel and hotel expenses tro get to their city. When you start adding in two hours of dyno time it get costly to achive the same result.
As far as my flahses go - I can duplicate the same exact result on the dyno or the street - the customer can hire my services either way. I prefer to use the road tuning when I travel as FAMILIARITY with a particular dyno is key to achiving a accurate simulation of real world conditions. I know how my home dyno works - but other dyno brands and even other dyno jets load differently due to varying levels of maintenance and age which makes it difficult to jump onto another shop's dyno and start tuning.
Those who have my road tune know that collant temps and the incline are all critical and have a huge effect on a/f and timing. Road tuning also takes a lot of practice
As for saftey, I try and pick appropriate locations where suitable limited access highways and 65 mph or greater speed limits exist. I have tuned over 300 evos and STI's on the highway and we neer had an incident so far. I realize that in any situation involving driveing there is a risk - BUT - I take every effort to minimize the risks.
My tuning method uses mostly 3rd gear pulls from 40 - 70 mph for 90 % of the work which I find is not very reckless.
Its funny how the Jason from Ntec guy is saying how reckless I am when I follow the forums and see thread after thread about him and Evotexas measuring performance by seeing who beats whom in street races. I think the word for this is hypocrite??
I can only tell you that many of the Evo owners I have worked for have seen 150 mph on highways and I have never gone over 120 in my evo on a highway - ever.
At the end of most tunes - we do a pull or two to about 95 - 100 in 4th very quickly to test the car. I can tell you that we only do that with both hands on the wheel, both eyes on the road and with a open strech of staight road ahead of me.
I'll never for get when the first STI I tuned on the road came back and told me that he hit some sort of top speed limit at 155 mph and wanted it removed. Of course, I am not going that fast in anyone's car and certainly not on a public road to find out where the speed limter is.
BTW - anyone who seeks my services and wants to get a dyno tune - I can do that and will love to make the arrangements for you to rent a dyno. If you follow my so called "case study" threads you will see I know a thing or two about how to work on a dyno.
I will post more on general tuning concepts with roads and dynos later
BOTH dyno tune and road tune are useful
For the reflash - and limited to that method of tuning only - people fail to realize that I already spend hundreds of hours and thousands and thousands of dollars of $ on the dyno when I first got the reflash and over the past year developing the ignition timing profiles and other critical aspects of the Dyno Flash. I have already done extensive R & D to make hundreds of base maps for various combinations of modifications. Once you have already dyno tuned a Evo with HKS RS Intake, 3 " Exhaust, MBC and fuel pump like on 40 - 50 diferent individual evos you start to get a very close base map. 99.999 % of my tuning is spent FINE adjusting the settings to match the individual car and fuel used.
IMHO - on MY reflashes - its a waste of money of the customer to pay for dyno time - IF they have a configuration that we already have a lot of base maps for. Getting a perrfect tune in those examples is simply a matter of making the small adjustments needed to make sure the a/f and timing are correct.
In other words - we have moved beyond basic research on our tunes to see what the timing profile is and what the effects on the VE are with various kinds of cams and parts - we already did that.
Finally - I like to take my time and spend 2 full hours per car to nail down ALL 4 gears and make sure no detonation apprears under normal driving.
IN MOST CASES - my total fee for the flash and the custom tuning is equal to what most shops would charge you for the 2 hours of dyno time needed. I am trying to offer a good tune - and also at a fair price. I charge people geting a 2 hour custom retune $299 ($399 for a new customer) - (which is less than some others charge for a through the mail base flash) and I cover the travel and hotel expenses tro get to their city. When you start adding in two hours of dyno time it get costly to achive the same result.
As far as my flahses go - I can duplicate the same exact result on the dyno or the street - the customer can hire my services either way. I prefer to use the road tuning when I travel as FAMILIARITY with a particular dyno is key to achiving a accurate simulation of real world conditions. I know how my home dyno works - but other dyno brands and even other dyno jets load differently due to varying levels of maintenance and age which makes it difficult to jump onto another shop's dyno and start tuning.
Those who have my road tune know that collant temps and the incline are all critical and have a huge effect on a/f and timing. Road tuning also takes a lot of practice
As for saftey, I try and pick appropriate locations where suitable limited access highways and 65 mph or greater speed limits exist. I have tuned over 300 evos and STI's on the highway and we neer had an incident so far. I realize that in any situation involving driveing there is a risk - BUT - I take every effort to minimize the risks.
My tuning method uses mostly 3rd gear pulls from 40 - 70 mph for 90 % of the work which I find is not very reckless.
Its funny how the Jason from Ntec guy is saying how reckless I am when I follow the forums and see thread after thread about him and Evotexas measuring performance by seeing who beats whom in street races. I think the word for this is hypocrite??
I can only tell you that many of the Evo owners I have worked for have seen 150 mph on highways and I have never gone over 120 in my evo on a highway - ever.
At the end of most tunes - we do a pull or two to about 95 - 100 in 4th very quickly to test the car. I can tell you that we only do that with both hands on the wheel, both eyes on the road and with a open strech of staight road ahead of me.
I'll never for get when the first STI I tuned on the road came back and told me that he hit some sort of top speed limit at 155 mph and wanted it removed. Of course, I am not going that fast in anyone's car and certainly not on a public road to find out where the speed limter is.
BTW - anyone who seeks my services and wants to get a dyno tune - I can do that and will love to make the arrangements for you to rent a dyno. If you follow my so called "case study" threads you will see I know a thing or two about how to work on a dyno.
I will post more on general tuning concepts with roads and dynos later
Dec 7, 2004, 05:14 PM
#30
Account Disabled
iTrader: (91)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Posts: 16,850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TurbotrixRacing
Worst case scenario, your " road tuning " with your customer and you crash, you kill someone in another car, and you kill the passenger ... IE the customer. You would be facing vehicular manslaughter charges and would be sued civily. I'm no angel and i've done both, but if given a choice i'll take the dyno everytime. Its just not worth risking everything, when you have access to a dyno. I know justin from pro-tech visits panama alot, where they dont have a dyno, what can you do. The whole idea of having a dyno is to keep off the street.
My .02 cents
Mark
Turbotrix
My .02 cents
Mark
Turbotrix
Most of my post dyno road tests are far more dangerous than the road tuning process which again is 3 rd gear pulls under 75 mph.
At the end of ANY tune road or dyno - its a requirement - IMHO - to take the car out and run through the gears to make sure its tuned properly and there are no issues in higher gears.
Even IF I tuned the car on a dyno - I would still go out and blast through 1 - 4th gear and listen for knock and see if there was any hesitation or pulling of timing.
I have to "feel" every car I touch after its done. Driving it on a dyno is not enough - I feel a road test is needed.
Whats your opinion, Mark? Thanks