gsujeff55

iTrader: (4)

although im not a dynoflash customer, i think Al handles the attacks and criticism like a gentleman, and i respect that.

MBGSTI

Its important that what the cars pulls on the dyno translates to real life power and driveablity.

Nobody heres is talking about street racing or doin 150 mph in a school zone.

I know that many EVO/Subby tuners either road tune or do a HARD "test drive" in their customer cars, especialy the ones that have more agressive setups.

I've been on a few with mine.

Noize

iTrader: (24)

Road tuning is quite a convenient way to mask the truth, isn't it? If you have no other basis of comparison and believe your custom tuned car is fast, it must be, right?

That is, until you go to a dragstrip and run a lackluster time. The BS stops at the track and the dyno. People who are confident of their cars tend to recoil into the cold grips of reality when they're staging at the tree or watching their turbo spool for that first run on the dyno.

Its interesting to note that every tuning company here admits that they pioneered their maps on the dyno. And that they're only using the road to fine tune.

Well, the reason I've only tuned on the dyno is because its the aforementioned BS filter mixed with a guardrail. Sure you can road tune with the safety net of a WBO2, but if you're only tuning a reflash, how will you know where to set the timing values? I've heard "You don't race on the dyno" excuse ad nauseum around here, yet the road won't give you feedback and tell you that you could safely advance the timing at x rpm to procure more power.

Baseline maps written from hours of work on the dyno are an an awesome tool to have, but every individual car is completely different, even when they have identical mods. My car might be able to take more timing than yours and vice versa. My car might be fine with 23psi at 4000rpm, but wants almost 25psi at 5000rpm. There are additional ways to make power besides air:fuel. Will the road tell you if your changes are ultimate.

Again, the BS stops at the track as well as the dyno. I'd confidently challenge anyone with a road tuned car thta has nearly identical mods to mine using a piggyback or reflash to a comparo which we will publish in this forum. If no similar car to my own can be found, there are several other different mod configurations of dyno tuned cars I'd be happy to use. This would be a dyno comparison on the same dyno on same day at Dyno4mance in Atlanta. You bring an independent operator to watch what's going on at the computer and I'll even pay for your dyno time; how's that sound? What it will prove infallibly is what I have already seen many times on the dyno: A road tuned car will get stomped by a dyno tuned car everytime.

If you want to use the same car, I'm game. Its time for the truth to be heard, not swept under a rug.

TurbotrixRacing

iTrader: (21)

Al,,

I've tuned before on the street, but like i said i'd much rather not. I dont tune on the edge enough to pick up any knock from the dyno to the street. I understand what you saying, but it just not worth the risk for me.. unless of course a road was found where no houses or traffic existed. I know this is the case for alot of midwest towns and down south, but for LA ... and street tuning .. they dont go in the same sentence..

Mark
Turbotrix

Hammerr

gtech, A/F meter, EGT, boost gauge and road tune. I do it on the highway, pull over to the break down lane then accelerate up to 70 or so when there's no one coming. No drama, no safety concerns. Every once in a while I'll run it up to a hundred and glance at my EGT's but I don't run that fast normally so don't have much desire to do so. Tuning my Suzuki GSXR1000 is another story; it does 80 in first.
In my opinion, Dyno is a crude tool, you've got to tune in the environment you're going to drive in if you want optimal settings.
And for those whose first question is always "why do you need that much horsepower", I say if you don't understand the rewards of accomplishment from tuning you never will. It's the same impulse that drives us to improve anything at all. It's the satisfaction of making something better than it was through your own efforts. Nobody complains about improved technology when they make a cell phone call or change tv stations by remote but they rebel against the human impulse that drives it. My impulse to modify and improve is why I'm an engineer. No apologies, no excuses.
Damn, guess I went on a rant there,

Noize

iTrader: (24)

A dyno is a crude tool, but you're monitoring EGTs, eh?

Mach V Dan

iTrader: (19)

I too prefer dyno tuning. Besides the safety/liability issues mentioned above, trying to tune on a public road in our area would be impractical; it's too built-up and busy. If we drove somewhere quiet, it would take a long time and we'd be far from the shop.

The dyno is a nice, safe place where we can mash the gas all we want without fear of hurting anyone or going to jail.

80 in first? Dayamn!

--Dan
Mach V
MachEVO.com

evo542

imho road tuning is the best. why? simply because it's real life conditions not some closed off environment trying to simulate real life conditions. Now if you have a windtunnel (manufacturers do) that blows 100mph.... that's a whole different topic

Az3ar

iTrader: (18)

I think both are good but in my opinion you can do the dyno tune alone but you can’t do the road tune with out the dyno, in other words the dyno is a must in all cases followed by a quick street tune. My friend got a Utec and my brother and I tried tuning it for him as much as we can until he his appointment day at Turboxs which was 2 weeks ahead. Turbos XS tuned the car on the dyno for 45 min about 15 pulls then took the car on the streets for 30 min or so. They had to guys do it and it was great experience and customer service. We all got an EVO to go fast and I am sure all of us had broken the law at some point and no one can deny that. In the end the dyno is a must in every case.

MO_EVO8

iTrader: (36)

The battle has begun.......I have personaly been in the car with AL and other tunners NO one and I mean NO one is tunning and driving at the same time....... come on.........thats why you have a LOG option on the AEM. Now tunning your AFC and driving that would be plain stupid........Oh and AFC to AEM is not Oranges to Oranges its much different. My $0.02

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

Intesresting argument. However - how do you explain the fact that I have so MANY customers running in the 11 second range with my flash ? My customers ave kicked some major *** at the track - including one winning the 1st annual Evo vs. WRX Shootout (January, '05 Turbo Magazine) 11.80 - stock turbo.

Evo Dave on these forums went 11.5 with the Dyno Flash road tune (tuned on the road behind Buschur Racing) - is that fast enough for a road tuned reflash? I believe thats faster than any Vishnu car - including thier shop cars- have ever went.

You talk about results on the track . . . . where are they ?

My evo went 10.59 and it was tuned on the street also

When I went 10's for the first time it was a road tune by Dave Buschur on my AEM which did the trick

All I can ask is WHO is masking the B.S. on these forums ? Surely it is not my product which has proven itself at the track all year.

I can think back to an instance when a HUGE dyno number was made by someone on the dyno and all the hype and BS talk about them running 10's - (hint they were not tuned by me) - well when they got to the track - thats when the dyno BS was laid to rest I guess???

What about the 1,000 whp evo from Busted solutions which is in the February, 2005 Turbo magazine with 700 plus whp and which went like 13 seconds at the Evo vs. WRX Shotout

Dyno numbers don't translate into real world performance. You need a car which can pull hard on BOTH the dyno and the real world.

MO_EVO8

iTrader: (36)

Al..well put man...your flash is by far the best bang for the buck I have seen yet. And would recomend your buisness any day.

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

Thanks! When I started this business, I was a big fan of chip tuning, having used chips or reflashes on most of my previous cars and having great results.

My concept was to bring real value to people with a product that delivered fair performance gains at a fair and resonable price. Through specialization in one car and volume, I have been able to lower the price on a fully custom tuned flash, installed and adjusted on site and in person at the end user's home town for less than what other chip tuners charge for a base flash through the mail with no tuning.

While, I could always improve upon the results with more and more tuning and fine adjustment drawing the tune closer and closer to perfection, I feel with 100% confidence that in a full 2 hours of road tuning the car will be within 2 -3 % on the a/f and ignition timing targets.

For those who are more curious about how a serious tuner approaches dyno testing please refer to this article which explains some of the short commings of using dynos for tuning

http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9


Please remember that Ferrari uses a engine dyno - inside a wind tunnel to tune its F1 cars - air flow is critical to proper and accurate tuning and all the dyno shops I have frequented have fans which are to small to replicate the air flow at 80 plus mph

How many dyno shops have a fan like this one ?

Noize

iTrader: (24)

Trust me, you don't want to have this debate.

Because they have an SAFC to "improve" upon your tune- Tuning on top of a tune; not the most efficient way to spend money IMO. While we're asking questions, maybe you can answer a couple for me. Why has every Dynoflash tune I've seen on the dyno leave 20+whp off the top end compared to every Xflash and TurboTrix flash on similarly modded cars? Why not call my "bluff" and send one of your road tuned Atlanta cars to the dyno so all of EvoM can see this truth? Just imagine, if your tunes are as good as you say they are, it will help your business! Surely you can see the wisdom in that.

A year ago, that was pretty special. Nowadays, its commonplace.

Is that on a 16G? Look closely and you'll find the SAFC added the car will make power on race gas. Your map is only an underlying factor, certainly not the catalyst for that time. What about Evo8power's 12.0 on a big upgraded turbo with a Dynoflash custom tune?

Have more than one of their upgraded turbo cars ever run the 1320? Their track results are all in road racing. Different types of customer bases are attracted to different things, I guess. Not everyone, though: Smogrunner recently broke 11s on a 16G'd XEDE car.

And tons and tons of dyno pulls before that. Don't pretend that car hasn't seen a lot of dyno time.

I have a ton of respect for Mr. Buschur and his years of 4G63 accomplishments. I wonder, though- Why didn't you tune your own car? IIRC, that third turbo upgrade had something to do with your ten second debut as well. Its not like you ran it with a great road tune on that 3037S.

The 11 second Dynoflash cars owe a lot to the Apex-i SAFC.

Now that's a low blow coming from you. You talked all sweet to George and nicely about his company up until he vanished when a search warrant came out. Nobody I'm associated with had anything to do with tuning that car. I did get to see it dyno, though; It made great power for all of about 500rpm. It was more than obvious that car would never run tens just by viewing the graph. That car could've had a chance in the right hands with proper turbocharger sizing and good tuning.

That's kind of a contradiction. If it pulls hard on the dyno (and has a good area under the curve), of course it will be fast in the real world.

Less dancing around the subject and more backing up your product please. This is your chance to shine! Send one of these stock turboed road tuned Atlanta cars to the dyno (my financial treat) and show us all what it'll do on the rollers. Better yet, there's an 1/8th mile track across the street from Dyno4mance. We can really back these claims up.

Al, I don't see why you wouldn't jump on this opportunity. A chance to make your company look good on a dyno and a dragstrip with me footing the bill for your customer! When the car makes great power and runs an awesome time, you can call it poetic justice served to me on a very cold dish. Outpower a similarly equipped XEDE car (race gas or pump gas, your choice without an SAFC) on the dyno or strip and Dynoflash flags will go up everywhere. Heck, bring a couple road tuned customer cars if you want; I'll pay to dyno them both. No harm or foul intended at all, just a fun and healthy competition.

evotomig

As much as I hate to, I have to agree with you Al on the above comments.
Quite frankly, as much as a BSer and used car salesman you sometimes are, at times you speak the truth.

The car with the HUGE dyno number was mine 470whp on DD (530-530whp on dynojet)
It ran as smooth as butter with no problems whatsoever on the dyno; yet the racegas numbers never translated to 1/4 mile performance at the track.

All I'm getting at, is that Dyno numbers don't mean shi* sometimes - performance at the track does, IMO.

BOTH dyno and road tuning can be beneficial at times.