All tunners on EVOM what our opinion on road tunning?
#61
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
What Mr. Buschur has proven is why inertial dynos like Dynojets are so useless when it comes to dyno testing hards. Like a road, it fails to hold all things equal. A 600whp run on a dynojet reveals very little useful info since the duration of the pull when the car has reach max load (boost) lasts for only a few seconds. The rest of the run is spool up which will differ from what you see on the road.
Shiv
Shiv
Obviously there must have been some useful information gleamed ?
#62
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Challenge Accepted!!
Originally Posted by Noize
I'd confidently challenge anyone with a road tuned car thta has nearly identical mods to mine using a piggyback or reflash to a comparo which we will publish in this forum. If no similar car to my own can be found, there are several other different mod configurations of dyno tuned cars I'd be happy to use. This would be a dyno comparison on the same dyno on same day at Dyno4mance in Atlanta. You bring an independent operator to watch what's going on at the computer and I'll even pay for your dyno time; how's that sound? What it will prove infallibly is what I have already seen many times on the dyno: A road tuned car will get stomped by a dyno tuned car everytime.
If you want to use the same car, I'm game. Its time for the truth to be heard, not swept under a rug.
If you want to use the same car, I'm game. Its time for the truth to be heard, not swept under a rug.
What are you mods??
I will run you on the dyno as you requested and will challenge you to a real world test in a 3rd gear roll after I have been embarrassed on the Dyno. We can run in a 65 or 70 mph roadway and that way the race will end at 90 mph, that wont be going too fast over the speed limit.
When do you want to do the comparo?? I would prefer to run a 93 octane test if thats okay. That is what my car will be tuned for.
Brian
#63
Unbelievable. Why does everything have to end up in a "Challenge" of some sort.
Here's a hint. It is easier to make forward progress when you are actually moving forward instead of butting heads.
Here's a hint. It is easier to make forward progress when you are actually moving forward instead of butting heads.
#64
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Friendly acceptance of a challenge.
I didn't mean to turn this into that. I was just accepting his challenge to help to solve this dilemma. It would be a good comparison to see how the road tuned flashed car would compare with an piggy back Xede that was tuned on a dyno. This would be interesting to know..
I didnt post in a derogatory fashion. But I did accept his posted challenge. No hard feelings from my part!!!
Brian
I didnt post in a derogatory fashion. But I did accept his posted challenge. No hard feelings from my part!!!
Brian
#65
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Originally Posted by davidbuschur
I truly believe in road tuning. With as much experience as we have in the 4g63 we know what kind of AFR's they like and what kind of timing numbers they will live with both on pump gas and race gas. This makes it pretty easy to tune it and get the maximum SAFE tune you can. This will in turn translate the maximum SAFE numbers it is going to make on the dyno.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
When Al came to Atlanta he "road tuned" my car and found that my car "did not like timing". According to him the factory maps were too aggressive for my car and it was knocking, etc. In the end, my car ended up de-tuned from the road tuned Dynoflash and running considerably richer.
Also, my car is not unique in the respect of the "don't like timing" characteristic. I've read about other cars like that and I've been contacted by other ppl who have had similar experiences.
This would seem to indicate that there are no common AFRs or timing numbers that apply to all EVOs. The other alternative is that the ppl who tuned and diagnosed my car were mistaken........
#66
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Originally Posted by TURBODAWG
I didn't mean to turn this into that. I was just accepting his challenge to help to solve this dilemma. It would be a good comparison to see how the road tuned flashed car would compare with an piggy back Xede that was tuned on a dyno. This would be interesting to know..
I didnt post in a derogatory fashion. But I did accept his posted challenge. No hard feelings from my part!!!
Brian
I didnt post in a derogatory fashion. But I did accept his posted challenge. No hard feelings from my part!!!
Brian
#67
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silverevo8,
I guess what I wrote isn't exactly what I meant as YOU are absolutely right in your response to me.
What I meant was you know BASICALLY what AFR's they like and BASICALLY what timing they like. I rely on the knock sensor a ton to let me know what I am doing when tuning the car. I see as much as 10 degrees difference on two identically set up EVO's in timing across the board sometimes. That is a ton of timing. It does give you basic curve for the timing and AFR's though to start with.
I do agree, a lot of difference in cars though. You just get a good feel for a particular engine when you tune so many.
In this case regardless of what numbers you ended up, 23 degrees of timing or 3 degrees that particular car is going to safely make its maximum HP on that particular octane on a road tune.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I guess what I wrote isn't exactly what I meant as YOU are absolutely right in your response to me.
What I meant was you know BASICALLY what AFR's they like and BASICALLY what timing they like. I rely on the knock sensor a ton to let me know what I am doing when tuning the car. I see as much as 10 degrees difference on two identically set up EVO's in timing across the board sometimes. That is a ton of timing. It does give you basic curve for the timing and AFR's though to start with.
I do agree, a lot of difference in cars though. You just get a good feel for a particular engine when you tune so many.
In this case regardless of what numbers you ended up, 23 degrees of timing or 3 degrees that particular car is going to safely make its maximum HP on that particular octane on a road tune.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
#69
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Originally Posted by silverEVO8
I'm not questioning your knowledge or expertise David. You've proven your ability countless times so this is not in question. However, I'm not convinced about your statement. As a matter of fact, based on empirical tests I can assure you that not all 4g63's are alike in their tolerance or "liking" certain timing numbers or A/F ratios.
When Al came to Atlanta he "road tuned" my car and found that my car "did not like timing". According to him the factory maps were too aggressive for my car and it was knocking, etc. In the end, my car ended up de-tuned from the road tuned Dynoflash and running considerably richer.
Also, my car is not unique in the respect of the "don't like timing" characteristic. I've read about other cars like that and I've been contacted by other ppl who have had similar experiences.
This would seem to indicate that there are no common AFRs or timing numbers that apply to all EVOs. The other alternative is that the ppl who tuned and diagnosed my car were mistaken........
When Al came to Atlanta he "road tuned" my car and found that my car "did not like timing". According to him the factory maps were too aggressive for my car and it was knocking, etc. In the end, my car ended up de-tuned from the road tuned Dynoflash and running considerably richer.
Also, my car is not unique in the respect of the "don't like timing" characteristic. I've read about other cars like that and I've been contacted by other ppl who have had similar experiences.
This would seem to indicate that there are no common AFRs or timing numbers that apply to all EVOs. The other alternative is that the ppl who tuned and diagnosed my car were mistaken........
Oddly - your car was so bad it was knocking on the stock maps!
After spending some time adjusting your timing, and a/f curves it was running fairly well - although weaker than most.
On of the principle benefits of custom tuning is identifying conditions such as yours - althout infrequent - and taking steps to work around them. A base tune would have been a diasater on your particular car.
Ironically, immediately after finishing the custom tune - you elected to install a manual boost controller which thereby negated most of the benefits of the custom tune. It may have been better to do the MBC first?
In any event - it was a pleasure to tune an evo of such a enthusiastic and dedicated evo hobiest as yourself
#70
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I am losing the idea of where this topic is going.... It seems most people use both a dyno and road tune it. I dont think there are any people that are going to pay a ton of cash to have someone tune thier car even though they disagree with the way they are going to tune it. If you want it dyno tuned, get it dyno tuned. If you want it road tuned, road tune it. I personally think on a dyno to start and then on the road to finish it but thats me, everyone is different. Why does everyone need to b1tch at each other over a personal preference?
#73
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The main advantage of a dyno is to be able to hold the engine at a steady load/RPM site without having to look out for traffic. Also you'll immediately see the effects of changes to fueling/ignition timing. Especially useful if you don't have a base map.
#74
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Originally Posted by TURBODAWG
I didn't mean to turn this into that. I was just accepting his challenge to help to solve this dilemma. It would be a good comparison to see how the road tuned flashed car would compare with an piggy back Xede that was tuned on a dyno. This would be interesting to know..
I didnt post in a derogatory fashion. But I did accept his posted challenge. No hard feelings from my part!!!
Brian
I didnt post in a derogatory fashion. But I did accept his posted challenge. No hard feelings from my part!!!
Brian
Keep us posted of the results if this ever goes thru.
#75
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Originally Posted by Noize
Trust me, you don't want to have this debate.
Because they have an SAFC to "improve" upon your tune- Tuning on top of a tune; not the most efficient way to spend money IMO. While we're asking questions, maybe you can answer a couple for me. Why has every Dynoflash tune I've seen on the dyno leave 20+whp off the top end compared to every Xflash and TurboTrix flash on similarly modded cars? Why not call my "bluff" and send one of your road tuned Atlanta cars to the dyno so all of EvoM can see this truth? Just imagine, if your tunes are as good as you say they are, it will help your business! Surely you can see the wisdom in that.
Because they have an SAFC to "improve" upon your tune- Tuning on top of a tune; not the most efficient way to spend money IMO. While we're asking questions, maybe you can answer a couple for me. Why has every Dynoflash tune I've seen on the dyno leave 20+whp off the top end compared to every Xflash and TurboTrix flash on similarly modded cars? Why not call my "bluff" and send one of your road tuned Atlanta cars to the dyno so all of EvoM can see this truth? Just imagine, if your tunes are as good as you say they are, it will help your business! Surely you can see the wisdom in that.