All tunners on EVOM what our opinion on road tunning?
Dec 8, 2004, 09:02 PM
#76
Evolved Member
iTrader: (23)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 1,203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a quick question.
I have no flash on my car and would like to consider myself unbiased. I have read this thread with interest as I found the question quite interesting.
My question is:
If Al believes so adamantly in the "Road Tune" then why is his flash/product called a "DynoFlash"? Wouldn't "RoadFlash" or "StreetFlash" make more sense?
I have no flash on my car and would like to consider myself unbiased. I have read this thread with interest as I found the question quite interesting.
My question is:
If Al believes so adamantly in the "Road Tune" then why is his flash/product called a "DynoFlash"? Wouldn't "RoadFlash" or "StreetFlash" make more sense?
Dec 8, 2004, 09:08 PM
#77
Originally Posted by Hammerr
"Dyno tuning is safer for everyone. But yes road has its advantages because of the real airflow and drive train load. But if you can't monitor changes in TQ and HP when mapping you’re almost guessing."
__________________
I find the gtech (or other similar units) to be essential in road tuning. It measures acceleration and gives you curves for torque and hp based on acceleration. Not the other way around like a dyno. It's important to rigid mount the gtech meter however for consistant results because the stock gtech mount really sucks.
gtech, A/F gauge and EGT together cost about $400. Tune away!
Yes I'll concede that dyno tuning for peak horsepower directly relates to top speed, if your gearing puts the hp peak at exactly the right spot. Not likely without a lot of top speed testing and re-gearing. Irrelevent for me as I don't ever intend on going 160 in my evo.
__________________
I find the gtech (or other similar units) to be essential in road tuning. It measures acceleration and gives you curves for torque and hp based on acceleration. Not the other way around like a dyno. It's important to rigid mount the gtech meter however for consistant results because the stock gtech mount really sucks.
gtech, A/F gauge and EGT together cost about $400. Tune away!
Yes I'll concede that dyno tuning for peak horsepower directly relates to top speed, if your gearing puts the hp peak at exactly the right spot. Not likely without a lot of top speed testing and re-gearing. Irrelevent for me as I don't ever intend on going 160 in my evo.
Dec 8, 2004, 09:13 PM
#78
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Well I for one don't tune much of anything on the dyno anymore. First off we have a 2wd dyno which makes doing an EVO extremely difficult. Second, I find when I do tune a car on the dyno the tune gives me two things, a HP/torque number and peak power. That is all you are going to tune on an inertia dyno. You still have to tune idle, cold start, fuel mileage (this is considering we are using a stand alone) and more times than not even the WOT tuning when you hit the real world of the street or track is off from what you had on the dyno.
I now tune just about every single car we do on the street now. I believe it is much easier, more accurate and a lot more dangerous. I often times wonder how many cars I am going to tune before I end up having a wreck with one. Hit a deer some something. Where I live and tune is extremely rural, no traffic, no cross roads, no children. Just farm fields and woods. Still I wonder about the deer and such coming into the roads. Don't get me wrong, I have been known to do in excess of 178 mph on normal public roads too. I don't care to hear how dangerous it is or about RASR either. I think those guys are a bunch of freaking hypocrits. I street race any chance I get and it's usually not in the most desolate places.
Anyway, I read the arguements that the street tunes won't generate the big HP numbers on the dyno blah blah blah. I don't agree with that. My theory on it is if you tune the car on the dyno you will just keep pushing and pushing to get a larger number. You will push until the car is completely on the edge of being safe. The car will come off the dyno with a big number and the first time something goes wrong for the customer he is going to have to pay for some damages. I have proven this fact time and time again. There are many tuners out there tuning on dyno's that have had cars blown up later and it is my belief that this is why it happens.
One car in particular left here after a road tune. He got it home and took it to the dyno. The car made 380 some whp on pump gas. He wasn't happy. The guy at the dyno said he could tune, they called me and I told them I thought it wasn't a good idea but go ahead. A few hours later the car made an additional 30 whp. It saddened me to think I left that much in the tune when I thought I had tuned it as far as it could safely go. The next day the owner of the car called me at home to let me know his car was blown up. I guess I didn't leave that much after all. That car is now in our parking lot waiting on an engine.
I truly believe in road tuning. With as much experience as we have in the 4g63 we know what kind of AFR's they like and what kind of timing numbers they will live with both on pump gas and race gas. This makes it pretty easy to tune it and get the maximum SAFE tune you can. This will in turn translate the maximum SAFE numbers it is going to make on the dyno.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I now tune just about every single car we do on the street now. I believe it is much easier, more accurate and a lot more dangerous. I often times wonder how many cars I am going to tune before I end up having a wreck with one. Hit a deer some something. Where I live and tune is extremely rural, no traffic, no cross roads, no children. Just farm fields and woods. Still I wonder about the deer and such coming into the roads. Don't get me wrong, I have been known to do in excess of 178 mph on normal public roads too. I don't care to hear how dangerous it is or about RASR either. I think those guys are a bunch of freaking hypocrits. I street race any chance I get and it's usually not in the most desolate places.
Anyway, I read the arguements that the street tunes won't generate the big HP numbers on the dyno blah blah blah. I don't agree with that. My theory on it is if you tune the car on the dyno you will just keep pushing and pushing to get a larger number. You will push until the car is completely on the edge of being safe. The car will come off the dyno with a big number and the first time something goes wrong for the customer he is going to have to pay for some damages. I have proven this fact time and time again. There are many tuners out there tuning on dyno's that have had cars blown up later and it is my belief that this is why it happens.
One car in particular left here after a road tune. He got it home and took it to the dyno. The car made 380 some whp on pump gas. He wasn't happy. The guy at the dyno said he could tune, they called me and I told them I thought it wasn't a good idea but go ahead. A few hours later the car made an additional 30 whp. It saddened me to think I left that much in the tune when I thought I had tuned it as far as it could safely go. The next day the owner of the car called me at home to let me know his car was blown up. I guess I didn't leave that much after all. That car is now in our parking lot waiting on an engine.
I truly believe in road tuning. With as much experience as we have in the 4g63 we know what kind of AFR's they like and what kind of timing numbers they will live with both on pump gas and race gas. This makes it pretty easy to tune it and get the maximum SAFE tune you can. This will in turn translate the maximum SAFE numbers it is going to make on the dyno.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Dec 8, 2004, 09:45 PM
#79
Originally Posted by rebelzx
Show me where you see 20 whp left on the table at the top-end on this DynoFlash tuned dyno graph. This is on my car, with all of the mods in my signature.
Dec 8, 2004, 10:33 PM
#80
Account Disabled
iTrader: (91)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Posts: 16,850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JTB
I have a quick question.
I have no flash on my car and would like to consider myself unbiased. I have read this thread with interest as I found the question quite interesting.
My question is:
If Al believes so adamantly in the "Road Tune" then why is his flash/product called a "DynoFlash"? Wouldn't "RoadFlash" or "StreetFlash" make more sense?
I have no flash on my car and would like to consider myself unbiased. I have read this thread with interest as I found the question quite interesting.
My question is:
If Al believes so adamantly in the "Road Tune" then why is his flash/product called a "DynoFlash"? Wouldn't "RoadFlash" or "StreetFlash" make more sense?
I do 50% custom dyno tunes here in CT at Pruven Performance
and 50% custom road tuning in other locations
ALL my customers can choose to elect a dyno or a road tuned option
I tune both ways and they both have significant advantages
Dec 8, 2004, 11:34 PM
#81
Evolved Member
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South FL
Posts: 1,070
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Al is comming to FL the first week in Jan. This topic is particularly intersting to me because I seem to be the only one that wants a dyno tune.... Most are all on board for the road tune. I guess it's the satisfaction of having some numbers with my $400 purchase... I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. HELP! 
Dec 8, 2004, 11:44 PM
#82
Originally Posted by rebelzx
Show me where you see 20 whp left on the table at the top-end on this DynoFlash tuned dyno graph. This is on my car, with all of the mods in my signature.
Dec 8, 2004, 11:51 PM
#83
I will gladly accept your challenge to Dyno against my road tuned car. I am getting my road tune this weekend in NC.
What are your mods??
What are your mods??
TaipanXP dump-back exhaust w/ stock O2 housing
Vishnu cam gears
HKS 264/264 cams
TD05HRA16G610.5T
AMS FMIS
AMS lower IC pipe
Japanese MR DV
SSautochrome tubular manifold
Walbro 255lph pump
stock clutch
stock airbox w/ paper filter
What are your mods?
I will run you on the dyno as you requested and will challenge you to a real world test in a 3rd gear roll after I have been embarrassed on the Dyno. We can run in a 65 or 70 mph roadway and that way the race will end at 90 mph, that wont be going too fast over the speed limit.
That said, I am game to go to the dragstrip and run side-by-side, though. I'm assuming you have the stock clutch too? With a 118mph trap and no 11 second slip, maybe we'd be the perfect comparo. And if for some reason we don't have the same mods, I'll likely have a couple of friends that could stand in.
When do you want to do the comparo?? I would prefer to run a 93 octane test if thats okay. That is what my car will be tuned for.
Originally Posted by TURBODAWG
I didn't mean to turn this into that. I was just accepting his challenge to help to solve this dilemma. It would be a good comparison to see how the road tuned flashed car would compare with an piggy back Xede that was tuned on a dyno. This would be interesting to know..
I didnt post in a derogatory fashion. But I did accept his posted challenge. No hard feelings from my part!!!
Brian
I didnt post in a derogatory fashion. But I did accept his posted challenge. No hard feelings from my part!!!
Brian
Last edited by Noize; Dec 8, 2004 at 11:59 PM.
Dec 9, 2004, 04:06 AM
#84
Evolved Member
iTrader: (20)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Shiv, how then do you explain how you are able to do tuning on AWD Dyno Jets on your now famous tuning trips to such Dyno Jet shops as Pruven, Turbo Trixs and Turbo Chargers.com??
Obviously there must have been some useful information gleamed ?
Obviously there must have been some useful information gleamed ?
The only useful info I gleam from using AWD dynojets is how unfriendly they are on the factory differential (esp. Subarus) and that people love the numbers they provide.
However, as for tuning, what it takes me 15 runs do to on an AWD dynojet, it takes me 4-5 runs to do on a load bearing DD dyno. Most of time, when using a dynojet, i'm trying to distinguish against dyno noise and actual knock sensor activity/misfire/etc,. This is one reason why the dyojet is the only "high resolution" measurement instrument I can think of that has a smoothening feature
IMHO, that's like using a medical thermometer that rounds to the nearest 5 degrees while averaging the temps of the last 1-5 (albeit user-selectable) mouths its been in. Hey, at least i'm not talking about rectal thermometers. Now that would be in poor taste.
shiv, from London
Last edited by shiv@vishnu; Dec 9, 2004 at 04:57 AM.
Dec 9, 2004, 04:09 AM
#85
Evolved Member
iTrader: (20)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by rebelzx
Show me where you see 20 whp left on the table at the top-end on this DynoFlash tuned dyno graph. This is on my car, with all of the mods in my signature.
Al,
Could you explain to me why sometimes your graphs display SAE corrected HP and other times they display Uncorrected HP and other times STD corrected HP? Heck, I think I even recall a few DIN corrected HP grapsh too
shiv, from London
Last edited by shiv@vishnu; Dec 9, 2004 at 04:57 AM.
Dec 9, 2004, 04:52 AM
#86
Evolved Member
iTrader: (20)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Road Tuning
Road tuning for max (or even close to max) performance should only be reserved for those tuners who area able to quantify, by the seat of their pants, the incremental effects of each and every change they make to the fuel/timing/boost maps. Without quantifying the effects of the last change, any conclusions a tuner would make with respect to the next change would be based entirely upon hypothesis, not fact. Unfortunately, my **** is not that finely calibrated so any road tuning is best left for those with this unique talent.
Road Testing
Road testing, however, is something completely different. It should be conducted after careful and controlled dyno tuning to ensure that the output registered on the dyno translates itself to the real world. 9 times out of 10, it will. Almost perfectly. However, sometimes it wont due to significant changes in operating conditions and/or when one component of the system has reached or is operating very near its limit (fuel system, ignition system, etc,.). In these cases, the tuner is given enough info to isolate the rogue variable and make the necessary adjustments (either to the tune or the system hardware). But without the results of both the road and dyno testing, such problem solving cannot take place. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for some people who have witnessed this situation to prematurely conclude that dyno testing is worthless. I think these people need to get a better understanding on how scientific testing is used to solve and explain the nature of problems-- and not to be rejected when deeper thought (however uncomfortable) is required
Conclusion
Road tuning is a novel idea. And it looks even more novel when the tuner has fancy stuff like a laptop, datalogger and a wideband AFR sensor on his lap. Using such equipment, it is possible to recreate some of the desired outputs (injector duty cycle, AFR, ignition advance, boost pressure) as once logged, previously, on another car, during actual dyno tuning. However, it is uncertain (and very unlikely) that the same horsepower/torque output is recreated due to car-to-car variance. As long as the customer knows that he is paying for a "best guess" or a "kinda sorta tune", that's fine. But if he expect the road tuner to say "Feels like your car has XX Horsepower" or that "There's only 5-10 more hp that can be extracted from dyno tuning", then I would question the veracity of the tuner or the effectiveness of his custom dyno tuning. Of course, these are just my opinions so they might not account to much more than a hill of beans. As always, your mileage may vary.
Best Regards,
Shiv, from London
Road tuning for max (or even close to max) performance should only be reserved for those tuners who area able to quantify, by the seat of their pants, the incremental effects of each and every change they make to the fuel/timing/boost maps. Without quantifying the effects of the last change, any conclusions a tuner would make with respect to the next change would be based entirely upon hypothesis, not fact. Unfortunately, my **** is not that finely calibrated so any road tuning is best left for those with this unique talent.
Road Testing
Road testing, however, is something completely different. It should be conducted after careful and controlled dyno tuning to ensure that the output registered on the dyno translates itself to the real world. 9 times out of 10, it will. Almost perfectly. However, sometimes it wont due to significant changes in operating conditions and/or when one component of the system has reached or is operating very near its limit (fuel system, ignition system, etc,.). In these cases, the tuner is given enough info to isolate the rogue variable and make the necessary adjustments (either to the tune or the system hardware). But without the results of both the road and dyno testing, such problem solving cannot take place. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for some people who have witnessed this situation to prematurely conclude that dyno testing is worthless. I think these people need to get a better understanding on how scientific testing is used to solve and explain the nature of problems-- and not to be rejected when deeper thought (however uncomfortable) is required
Conclusion
Road tuning is a novel idea. And it looks even more novel when the tuner has fancy stuff like a laptop, datalogger and a wideband AFR sensor on his lap. Using such equipment, it is possible to recreate some of the desired outputs (injector duty cycle, AFR, ignition advance, boost pressure) as once logged, previously, on another car, during actual dyno tuning. However, it is uncertain (and very unlikely) that the same horsepower/torque output is recreated due to car-to-car variance. As long as the customer knows that he is paying for a "best guess" or a "kinda sorta tune", that's fine. But if he expect the road tuner to say "Feels like your car has XX Horsepower" or that "There's only 5-10 more hp that can be extracted from dyno tuning", then I would question the veracity of the tuner or the effectiveness of his custom dyno tuning. Of course, these are just my opinions so they might not account to much more than a hill of beans. As always, your mileage may vary.
Best Regards,
Shiv, from London
Last edited by shiv@vishnu; Dec 9, 2004 at 05:16 AM.
Dec 9, 2004, 05:06 AM
#87
Evolving Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: N Cali
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Road Tuning
Road tuning for max (or even close to max) performance should only be reserved for those tuners who area able to quantify, by the seat of their pants, the incremental effects of each and every change they make to the fuel/timing/boost maps. Without quantifying the effects of the last change, any conclusions a tuner would make with respect to the next change would be based entirely upon hypothesis, not fact. Unfortunately, my **** is not that finely calibrated so any road tuning is best left for those with this unique talent.
Road Testing
Road testing, however, is something completely different. It should be conducted after careful and controlled dyno tuning to ensure that the output registered on the dyno translates itself to the real world. 9 times out of 10, it will. Almost perfectly. However, sometimes it wont due to significant changes in operating conditions and/or when one component of the system has reached or is operating very near its limit (fuel system, ignition system, etc,.). In these cases, the tuner is given enough info to isolate the rogue variable and make the necessary adjustments (either to the tune or the system hardware). But without the results of both the road and dyno testing, such problem solving cannot take place. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for some people who have witnessed this situation to prematurely conclude that dyno testing is worthless. I think these people need to get a better understanding on how scientific testing is used to solve and explain the nature of problems-- and not to be rejected when deeper thought (however uncomfortable) is required
Road Tuning
Road tuning is a novel idea. And it looks even more novel when the tuner has fancy stuff like a laptop, datalogger and a wideband AFR sensor on his lap. Using such equipment, it is possible to recreate some of the desired outputs (injector duty cycle, AFR, ignition advance, boost pressure) as once logged, previously, on another car, during actual dyno tuning. However, it is uncertain (and very unlikely) that the same horsepower/torque output is recreated due to car-to-car variance. As long as the customer knows that he is paying for a "best guess" or a "kinda sorta tune", that's fine. But if he expect the road tuner to say "Feels like your car has XX Horsepower" or that "There's only 5-10 more hp that can be extracted from dyno tuning", then I would question the veracity of the tuner or the effectiveness of his custom dyno tuning. Of course, these are just my opinions so they might not account to much more than a hill of beans. As always, your mileage may vary.
Best Regards,
Shiv, from London
Road tuning for max (or even close to max) performance should only be reserved for those tuners who area able to quantify, by the seat of their pants, the incremental effects of each and every change they make to the fuel/timing/boost maps. Without quantifying the effects of the last change, any conclusions a tuner would make with respect to the next change would be based entirely upon hypothesis, not fact. Unfortunately, my **** is not that finely calibrated so any road tuning is best left for those with this unique talent.
Road Testing
Road testing, however, is something completely different. It should be conducted after careful and controlled dyno tuning to ensure that the output registered on the dyno translates itself to the real world. 9 times out of 10, it will. Almost perfectly. However, sometimes it wont due to significant changes in operating conditions and/or when one component of the system has reached or is operating very near its limit (fuel system, ignition system, etc,.). In these cases, the tuner is given enough info to isolate the rogue variable and make the necessary adjustments (either to the tune or the system hardware). But without the results of both the road and dyno testing, such problem solving cannot take place. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for some people who have witnessed this situation to prematurely conclude that dyno testing is worthless. I think these people need to get a better understanding on how scientific testing is used to solve and explain the nature of problems-- and not to be rejected when deeper thought (however uncomfortable) is required
Road Tuning
Road tuning is a novel idea. And it looks even more novel when the tuner has fancy stuff like a laptop, datalogger and a wideband AFR sensor on his lap. Using such equipment, it is possible to recreate some of the desired outputs (injector duty cycle, AFR, ignition advance, boost pressure) as once logged, previously, on another car, during actual dyno tuning. However, it is uncertain (and very unlikely) that the same horsepower/torque output is recreated due to car-to-car variance. As long as the customer knows that he is paying for a "best guess" or a "kinda sorta tune", that's fine. But if he expect the road tuner to say "Feels like your car has XX Horsepower" or that "There's only 5-10 more hp that can be extracted from dyno tuning", then I would question the veracity of the tuner or the effectiveness of his custom dyno tuning. Of course, these are just my opinions so they might not account to much more than a hill of beans. As always, your mileage may vary.
Best Regards,
Shiv, from London
Wouldn't datalogging be useful?
Dec 9, 2004, 05:24 AM
#89
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Road Tuning
Road tuning for max (or even close to max) performance should only be reserved for those tuners who area able to quantify, by the seat of their pants, the incremental effects of each and every change they make to the fuel/timing/boost maps. Without quantifying the effects of the last change, any conclusions a tuner would make with respect to the next change would be based entirely upon hypothesis, not fact. Unfortunately, my **** is not that finely calibrated so any road tuning is best left for those with this unique talent.
Road tuning for max (or even close to max) performance should only be reserved for those tuners who area able to quantify, by the seat of their pants, the incremental effects of each and every change they make to the fuel/timing/boost maps. Without quantifying the effects of the last change, any conclusions a tuner would make with respect to the next change would be based entirely upon hypothesis, not fact. Unfortunately, my **** is not that finely calibrated so any road tuning is best left for those with this unique talent.
Dataloggers are quite capable of displaying horsepower and torque given just an RPM input and the weight of the vehicle, and a flat road (Ohio is perfect for this, btw
). Even if the weight isn't accurate, the power and torque curves from a datalogger should be repeatable. It is like using an inertial dyno like a dynojet, except it gives real-world results.Hell, even graphing the 1st derivative of the RPM curve would give you acceleration, which you could compare to previous runs with pretty high accuracy.
DSMLink has horsepower and torque available to display in the datalogger window. It works quite well. When people go to dynojets with DSMLink, it is recommended to set the verhicle's weight to the weight of the Dynojet roller. It gives results that are pretty damn close to the graph of the dynojet.
Dec 9, 2004, 05:26 AM
#90
Evolved Member
iTrader: (20)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by evotomig
How would the tuner "isolate the rogue variable" during a road test??
Wouldn't datalogging be useful?
Wouldn't datalogging be useful?
Datalogging always helps. But its only as useful as the person interpreting it. In the above case, misfire can kinda sorta be diagnosed by looking at wideband AFR. Then again, most tuners would be able to diagnose misfire by simply driving the car.
Andrew-- Weather is actually sunny today. And I've rented a Vauxhall Vectra. Going to Oxford and Uxbridge today to see some Eh-vos
