plokivos

iTrader: (3)

need a 2g ecu with obd I.... ahhhhh

Karash

iTrader: (6)

Yea i figured...if done correctly, I wonder how much an effect it would have on the street.

Karash

iTrader: (6)

btw MJ, could you post your thread again on the mod you did. I am having a hard time finding it.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I could have sworn I put that thread in here somewhere, I guess this type of thread has been started several times..

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...lowthrough+MAF

The only real issues I have had on the street had specifically to do with my car's low idle at the time, when the A/C or Alternator would put additional load, the engine RPM's would drop and the car would go rich.. That is something that doesn't happen when you raise the idle to around 1000rpm.

Also, with a blowthrough sensor, there's a slight "Delay" with airflow, its not the sensor reading itself, but the fact that there's a delay through the turbo when airflow builds.. When your already moving and engine RPM Is over 1200rpm, this is something you don't see whatsoever..

There are all little quirks that can be easily adjusted for with a UTEC or any piggyback, also, you'll notice the airflow rate is very linear, and not inconsistant like you would see with aftermarket intakes and the stock MAF, so fuel compensation adjustments end up being very predictable and reproducable. But of course, your dealing with a retune.

the GM MAF translator kits apparently do not have the MAP sensor, or IAT sensor to replace the sensors removed from the stock MAF, so you will either get a CEL, have to provide your own (if their instructions document what sensors to use) or the Translator loops back a neutral value.

the Pro-Flow Karmann Converter has a built-in 1bar map sensor. It includes a Ford charge air temp sensor (that you put into your intake pipe).. the Karmann converter will alter airflow karmann output based on those sensor readings, so on a very cold day, or very high pressure, it will correctly register denser air and raise the Karmann signal accordingly, same occurrs for high altitude, or very warm days. So your tune should remain consistent to the airflow.

I haven't posted pictures of the rev2 setup that I have, which is basically a blowthrough sensor integrated into a buschur upper intercooler pipe, and AIT sensor integrated into the buschur intake pipe, but it works a little better than the first revision. Only I think the reason for that was I Discovered the first gen blowthrough tube that I got from my original vender, placed the air temp sensor in the worst possible location and would absorb all sorts of heat, and not get a true intake air temp reading and therefore would throw the car constantly in between very rich, and very lean, and would confuse the ECU enough where it would drop into open loop at idle and stall.. This doesn't happen with the new setup as long as you adjust the idle speed. (this will apply to any blowthrough setup)


When you do your GM MAF research, see HOW they compensate for temp and air pressure changes, it will have a big affect on your ability to tune the car, and consistency as weather changes.

For example, I've been driving with the rev2 sensor setup for the past 2 weeks, I've had weather from 50 degrees to 9 degrees.. my tune has been consistent regardless of the weather conditions. (The jury is still out for a real hot day, but I can't help that)

What I'm hoping is someone comes out with an "Idle stepper motor interceptor/controller" so you can control idle speed without rendering the factory idle control inoperative, just something to alter the signal up or down a little, or that the UTEC integrates this feature soon.

Good news is this will work fine with a reflash, and the reflash tuners can make idle compensation and tip-in throttle enrichment adjustments too.

The stock MAF was always used an a roadblock to "Performance" by alot of tuners claiming that a standalone with speed density is a better choice. I don't believe that, at least not for daily driving. The blowthrough setup I'm using has improved my performance noticably through the gears (I'd guess I've picked up quite a bit of torque, and around 20-30whp) Also I can run a BOV that is no longer prone to leaking so I have more stable boost, which is also partly the reason for the gains.

Karash

iTrader: (6)

Sorry for the newb question...but you say you can run a VTA, but doing recirc is still preferred?

JustDSM

iTrader: (28)

As long as the BOV is before the meter you can VTA, however it is always better to recirc if at all possible.

bpclements

iTrader: (41)

Man. Sounds like I would be getting in way over my head. Not an easy mod as I thought it was at all. I think I will just continue to follow your research on the proflow unit. I can deal with the pirce on it and it sounds much better. Thanks for letting us know MalibuJack.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Yes.. but in my case its because of how simple it is to swap my stock meter back on if i need to.. and at the moment I can swap my stock MAF back on in a few minutes and not have metering problems.

Its always preferrable to recirculate anyway, People forget that there will be occasions that the airflow can reverse through the BOV and air can be drawn into the intake tract through it.. This situation is rare, but when it does happen, its obviously better to get filtered air than unfiltered air.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I'd like to see someone sucessfully use the GM maf and Ramcharger maf translator on the Evo.. I do know that there are probably several Evo's not online that have been using it. Its just that my experience with climate changes, air temp changes, humidity, etc.. all make working with setups that remove or bypass sensors, or speed density, a little difficult to maintain drivability in all occasions.

I really don't want to discourage people from treading new territory and trying this.. I just wanted to give my experiences and reasons for choosing the particular product I'm using.

keydiver

iTrader: (2)

You might be interested in this graph I did of the actual data I pulled from 1G, 2G, and EVO ECU's:
http://www.dsmchips.com/~keydiver/MA...N_1G_2G_3G.xls
The one you're interested in is the chart that compares the 2G and 3G MAS. Although the 3G (#482) MAS flows slightly less than an EVO MAS, the liters per Hz is almost identical, and, as you can see, the amount of airflow that the 3G flows is about 25% more for a given Hz than a 2G MAS. So, a good starting point on the MAF Translator would be to subtract around 25%, at everything but idle at least. You would set the Translator switches as if you had a 2G with ~560cc injectors. (450cc stock 2G injectors X 1.25)

USP45

iTrader: (13)

I understand what MalibuJack is saying about the lack of temp correction, but what does the MAP do? Indicate boost levels? The obvious advantage to the GM piece is the price and availability, the Ford has the MAP and IAT sensors. Is there another option other then the Ford piece? Could I get the airflow meter out of a wrecked Cobra and make it work? Maybe I sould not be so damn cheap, but the $680-$730 or so that Pro-Flow wants is just out of my reach with the other bits and pieces I want. I just wish it were more affordable, maybe we can get a group buy for their product. But what other car has pieces that could work?

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Actually your data is right on the money, it definitely appears that when I installed my translator, I had to alter the base correction value (the idle MAF reading) about 15% to get the car to idle, and I get a decent all around fuel curve, that resulted in about a 30hz idle frequency, in reality my car's fuel trims get whacked occasionally and the car drops out of closed loop, resets the trims to zero, and then hunts for 14.7afr again, so it definitely appears that you need to lean things out a bit more..

GM translator you set switches, on the Proflow setup, you have to adjust your idle Karmann to about 30hz and then tweak using your piggyback or reflash to get your curve back...

The good news is the Pro-Flow setup has been calibrated at this point specifically for the Evo, which means it maintains about 30hz and the curve now (since they recalibrated my sensor and sent me a new karmann converter) runs real close to stock (even to the point of being fairly rich, but its still leaner than stock since its capable of flowing alot more air, its WOT high RPM karmann seems closer to around 1500hz where you'd be closer to 1800 on a stock MAF) so you *HAVE* to adjust accordingly before you do any major pulls. On my car I used the addon MAF Calibrator to "Steepen" the curve so it still idles at 30hz, but is about 2000hz at redline, I then tuned around it.. But its not necessary to kill yourself, just watch your karmann value closely and tune accodringly.

Honestly though, 1500hz was closer to the readings I was getting on a stock MAF equipped car with aftermarket open intake filter, maf pipe, and intercooler pipes.. so I already had a tune that didn't put a hurting on me.

Oh.. And just so you guys are aware.. I saw these other questions asked..

the 1 bar MAP sensor built into the MAF is basically to measure the outside air pressure, its used in conjunction with the air temp sensor to calculate the air density so the Karmann value can accurately calculate the air mass regardless of conditions..

On the Proflow setup, an AIT sensor (for a ford) is provided along with a 1bar map sensor built into the Karmann converter.. so REAL air mass values are sent to the ECU and are accurate regardless of conditions.. I am certain that the AIT sensor reads accurate temps, and the MAP sensor is reading a value that isn't locked since I can log that data and I live in a climate where this information is altered enough to be able to verify it.

the Ramcharger MAF translator that uses the GM sensor **LOCKS** the AIT value at 70 degrees (I think) and MAP value at sea level.. there are no sensors for AIT or MAP, but the output is statically generated by the translator.. The only is the GM MAF (Hot wire sensor) and anyone who works with hot wire sensors is PAINFULLY aware of how air intake temps and air pressure can affect what value the hot wire sensor reads, therefore you will always get the same Karmann output based on airflow, but it will no longer compensate for the density of the air, so you will have "Lean days" (days that are colder, and/or higher pressure will mean the car runs leaner than when it was originally tuned)

the older MAF translator was obviously older technology and designed to remove variables that were probably difficult to work around.. But it removed some of the major benefit of the MAF sensor, which was to always provide accurate flow data so your AFR's should be consistent regardless.. (you'll generally always hit the right load cell for the right air mass)

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

Yes, you can use a ford cobra MAF and save about $100.. But you will have to get a MAF Calibrator tool, which is $130 or so to calibrate the flow of the OEM MAF sensor to match the car.. What you gain, you lose, and what you lose, you gain.. There's no easy way around it, if you want to work around and eliminate stock EVO MAF as a restriction, its going to ultimately cost you $2000 whether its $700 for the Proflow setup, and a reflash/S-AFC combo, or the $700 and a UTEC, or a full standalone with speed density, or just the MAP-ECU and a piggyback or reflash, you'll spend $1500-$2000 no matter which path.. Ultimately what is going to determine your path is

1) Retaining OBD-II
2) Emission legal (for reason #1 or others)
3) Learning curve (a standalone has a steep learning curve and takes weeks to tweak to get perfect drivability)
4) Drivability (the stock ECU will always be more drivable than a standalone)
5) Adaptability, although your tunes for open loop fueling will depend on your tuning method, retaining the stock ECU means that it will learn as conditions change in daily driving.. you just will not get that with a standalone, even with feedback fueling, it just doesn't learn much more than fuel trims and a few other limited parameters.. Fortunately for flash and piggyback users, closed loop fueling is essentially left "Stock" which means the car will start, idle, learn, and cruise like a stock car. Obviously within reason since cams, injectors and big turbos can also affect drivability..

keydiver

iTrader: (2)

This is a COMMON misconception/misunderstanding. The GM MAF DOES have BOTH a barometric pressure sensor and IAT built in, so the Hz signal coming out is already compensated for both, and is therefore a TRUE airmass signal. So, it locks the ECU's IAT and BARO inputs so that you don't get a CE light.
Thats not to say though that its a perfect system, as the majority of my support questions are from people trying to get their MAFT tuned right.

MalibuJack

iTrader: (5)

I am aware that the GM sensor has a thermesistor, but of all the data and research I've seen, I don't see any GM sensor with a Baro sensor built in. I've looked at the Bosch sensor, Hitachi sensor (also used in the fords), and a few others.. I have no reason do doubt what you've said, only that all the data I have on the GM sensor (later ones for the LS1/LS6 and LT1/LT4) are Karmann type sensor output using a hot wire sensor that contains a thermesister...

However my point was the Evo ECU has compensations for temp and altitude that really should be used.

http://www.kemparts.com/TechTalk/tt06.asp
http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/counterp...erpoint3_2.pdf

This should be useful MAF info..

Also, I've also started doing some additional research on the Splitsecond products, I discovered their ARC-2 Karmann has Tip-in (TPS) compensation that could be useful for the stumble caused by the momentary lag in airflow when opening the throttle.


Whoops.. This should be posted in my other thread..