RogueSTi

iTrader: (14)

Hey fellas,
I want to step up my knowlege of turbocharger systems to the next level. I have basic knowlege only on how turbo systems work, but I want to understand proper turbo sizing, A/R's, Trims, Housings, center cartridges, etc. I want to be able to read and understand compressor maps, choose proper wastegates...basically everything there is to know.

Can anyone recommend some literature, books, websites, etc so that I can begin my little research project?

sylvester31

iTrader: (8)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
best book i have evr read about turbos, anything and everything you want to know.

propellerhead

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, Maximum Boost isn't a bad book. It's a little light on substance but it does give a good overview of turbo specs & sizing. More of the book is dedicated to retrofitting an aftermarket turbo system to a N/A motor including a case study of an install on an NSX. IMO it's a bit dated. The publication date is 1997. It's still worth having in your library.

Actually, IMO a great book I recently got that has greater overall breadth and depth on tuning FI cars is Forced Induction Performance Tuning: A Practical Guide to Supercharging and Turbocharging by A. Graham Bell. IMHO, it picks up where Maximum Boost leaves off and also should have a spot in your library.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...274502-9971807

It seems most of the books specific to turbochargers out there are pretty dated. Any other suggestions?

<rant type="offtopic">
Unfortunately, using the information you learn from Maximum Boost probably won't help you evaluate the various turbo offerings from many of the vendors that advertise on this board. Many of them, such as Buschur, AMS & RnR have "proprietary turbos" built to their "specs" and won't release basic specs let alone maps. It's sort of the same thing as trying to buy something like a Compaq PC and do comparision shopping between Best Buy and Circuit City. It's impossible to do since each vendor has their "special" model built for them. At least the BBand CC publish the specs...

What some vendors fail to realize or at least acknowledge is that the turbo itself isn't and shouldn't be the differentiator between vendors or their products, it's the overall system design, performance and customer support that should set them apart. I've seen AMS state the idea once or twice in threads but there's little to back it up aside from some weak *** web pictures, one video of Martin ripping thru the gears and alot of word of mouth. From a performance standpoint, really only Buschur makes any sort of effort to document performance doing baseline & comparision dyno pulls and publishing them.
</rant>

AMS

iTrader: (3)

What some vendors fail to realize or at least acknowledge is that the turbo itself isn't and shouldn't be the differentiator between vendors or their products, it's the overall system design, performance and customer support that should set them apart. I've seen AMS state the idea once or twice in threads but there's little to back it up aside from some weak *** web pictures, one video of Martin ripping thru the gears and alot of word of mouth. From a performance standpoint, really only Buschur makes any sort of effort to document performance doing baseline & comparision dyno pulls and publishing them.
</rant>[/QUOTE]


Maybe you haven't seen other exampled but here are a few. There are videos of our car going 10.6, and many, many 10 second timeslips. How about the quickest and fastest 3 street evo's running our turbo kit. Or maybe the many magazine articles that I document each stage of our evo including the turbo kit with dyno sheets?

Here are tech articles about the EVO VIII, or other articles related to turbocharging.


Modified Magazine

EVO VIII upgrade path March 2004, pg 107-110

Engine Managment & Tuning August 2004, pg 115-119

***Here is a good one on turbo selection & testing***
April 2004 pg 81-84 (Shows dyno's of different A/R's, ect)

EVO VIII upgrade path February 2004 pg 114-118

there's more magazine articles but that's what I have in front of me.

Also here is a link to "Reading compressor maps" article that I wrote.
http://www.vfaq.com/mods/Turbo-compressor-maps.html

Here is a link to a big cam test I did that cost me a lot of time and money and I did for benefit of the DSM community to help with cam selection.

http://www.automotosports.com/cam_test.asp

I probably have almost a 1000 dyno pulls testing & developing products on our EVO VIII. With each product tested and released I include dyno results.

There will be a big cam test for the EVO VIII but that is in the works. Again, a lot of time and money will be invested to accomplish this task and I will share the information with everyone.

I hope this clears things up. If anyone has turbo related questions I would be more than happy to answer them. BTW yes the recommonded books are good reading, but there is so much more to running a good turbo than just looking at the spec's and raw data.

Regards,

Martin Musial

RogueSTi

iTrader: (14)

Before this turns into a pissing contest, I do not seek this knowledge so that I may use it to shop around for a turbo upgrade purchase. That may be a byproduct, however my desire to research turbocharger systems is purely for my own understanding. Therefore any bragging by product manufacturers or vendors will be ignored. The Evo is not my first, or last turbocharged vehicle, so the knowlege I seek is not Evo specific.

Thank you for the reference material you have suggested so far.

AutoMotoSports

iTrader: (42)

we are not bragging by any means. I swear some days I wish the internet didnt exist. Everyone gets so defensive. What Martin was doing was merely showing this member that we have alot to offer other then one video and a few "weak ***" pictures.

AMS has done a ton for the community on researching product. Heck the DSM cam test we did is still one of our most hittable links on most DSM sites. Did our cam sales go up...no not really at all. But we have alot more informed people out there thanks to it. I have personally been in this little hobby of ours for more then 5 years and I can tell you with complete honesty that Martin is without a doubt the most giving and Generous person I have EVER met in any tuner community. This is his profession but with the degrees in engineering that he has he could be making a TON more money...he loves this though. and loves to see it grow. Sorry if I sound like I am taking the defensive here I just want to make sure you understand where we are coming from. If you would like call up Martin and talk to him...he loves talking to customers with a head on there shoulders. If he is busy call and ask for me. I too would love to talk with you about options on the phone. Again please dont take anything that was posted here or above as promoting product....if it came off that way we sincerely appoligize.

Eric

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

Martin - WHAT - no mention of your fastest customer ???????????

Hint 10.59 @ 137 mph ! I love that turbo kit - still looks like new and not a crack in sight. Its a super well made product and I love the way it works.

But Martin you really suck for not releasing the exact turbo specs so other vendors can duplicate your set up and sell it for $50 less !

BTW - I love that Maximum Boost book !

Evoisdream

iTrader: (27)

not to hijack the thread but what about tuning the car.... learning what proper and ok a/f ratio's are etc anyone know a book for that? thanks


evoisdream

AMS

iTrader: (3)

I wasn't trying to push our product, just saying that I do have knowledge on the subject and I do product testing. Again if you have any general turbo or tuning questions I'd be happy to answer them, over the phone or on this forum. For a quick and easy turbo read I'd suggest getting a copy of the April 2004 issue of Modified with my turbo article.

Unfortunately tuning is by case basis only. There is a generalization for the basics of tuning but there is so much to it that I could spend all day talking about it. What is your particular question on tuning? A/F? It depends on the boost level, what gas, and other things. Example, an EVO VIII with a stock motor and pump gas I'll run at roughly 11.0-11.5 if I'm pushing it hard, sometimes even a little richer. On a high octane race gas I'll shoot for around 12.5:1 on a built motor, sometimes even a little leaner. I'll look through my books that I have and see if I see one that could give you some insight into tuning.

Regards,

Martin

AMS

iTrader: (3)

You're in the top three bro! I'll have some new toys available here pretty soon that will make that beast hit over 140mph this upcoming season. Put some real tires on that thing and pull off a low 10 second pass already!

propellerhead

iTrader: (3)

This is way off topic but I feel I have to respond.

I don't think I expressed myself very well or perhaps I was misunderstood. I'm not trying to knock anyone's products. I'm also not trying to suggest that AMS hasn't done extensive testing in the course of developing products. The problem I have as a consumer is finding any sort of data to support the product. It seems that very few of these turbo kit developers publish anything that is easy to find. Why is it difficult to see some data that demonstrates the gains realized by building a car using a particular vendor's staged parts? Rarely is this information compiled in one place, such as a vendor's website. Instead I've got to wade through pages of crappy forum messages, hunt down six different magazine articles & look at largely meaningless dyno plots from 10 different pulls from 10 different dynos. It's as if I'm not supposed to understand what I'm shelling out $4500 to get. I guess I'm supposed to just look at a few pictures and trust EVERYONE that I'll like it.

Do you really think witholding turbo specs will prevent competitors from replicating an offering and selling it for $50 less?!? Heck, if I really wanted to clone kits and sell 'em to undercut ANY vendor I could probably do it and still make money. In order to get the information, all I have to do is pick up the phone, order a kit and ship it to Taiwan or China and 4 months later a 40 foot container would arrive at my driveway, full of parts. Is it really that easy? Of course not! The customer service would suck. The quality would suck and everyone that bought one would have a sore *** after I flew to the Caymans with the money. So, again, why would publishing the specs make ripping off the work of an engineer like Martin any easier? I'm not asking for the friggin fabrication jigs...

The general concensus seems to be that AMS builds quality kits that perform. I don't dispute that. However, I want to understand as much as I can about how a kit performs, mainly in terms of spool up and lag. Drag strip data is great to support horsepower output claims & videos are fun to watch but they're only part of the picture. I don't want to have to search high and low to find information that IMO should be readily available by requesting it over the phone or via direct e-mail. Trust me, I've tried asking more than once and all I've gotten are vague redirections to the Garrett website. Also, I'm not interested in piecing my own kit together. I can't afford to spend the time. My time is worth more than the $50, far more.

As I see it there are two issues. One, vendors are fearful of imitators. To a certain degree I understand but if you truely provide a better overall product and support it, then the fear is mostly baseless. Two, there is so much bench racing riff raff asking pointless questions that inevitably lead to no sale that eventually every potential customer is treated like a lame, daydreaming *** hole. It's too bad vendors have not developed a way to weed out the empty pocketed weenies. More than once I have "voted with my feet" and chosen to not do business and spend several thousand dollars with a vendor because they treated me like crap. Maybe I have a low tolerance for frustration and unrealistically high standards. Who knows? I'll provide anyone with specifics if they care to send me a PM.

AMS

iTrader: (3)

Thank you for making yourself clear. If you want a before and after dyno plot of the stock turbo and a GT35R kit I can supply you with one no problem. There is only one small detail of the kit I wasn't giving out because frankly at the time, it was something new and that I tetested, so I wanted to make my product unique for at least some time.

It's funny you mention the thing about customers and questions, tech support ,ect... We have three lines and 4 guys in the sales office. About 95% of the time they are answering questions and giving support. Cusomter support is important and you don't know if a call will turn into a sale. Of course there are limits and a line has to be drawn somewhere (we can't tell someone how to rebuild a motor over the phone). One thing I try to do is keep our lines open for questions and help people out. I understand your frustration because I know how many businesses treat potential customers, and it is frustrating. They are treated like a wallet full of money, they will be told anything to empty it out and given the cold shoulder if asking tech questions. Anyways, thanks for your point of view and I hope I could help you out. Again do you or anyone else on here have any specific questions about turbo's, all this talking and not one questions :-)

Regards,

Martin

Evoisdream

iTrader: (27)

wow thanks for the info martin i appreciate it if you wouldnt mind sending me some info that would b awsome i would at least like to do a/f and take it to mac to have the rest done worst case thanks

jj_008

iTrader: (8)

Ok, I will go out on a limb and ask a turbo question.

What is better in regards to power and spool up. A bigger turbine wheel or a bigger A/R housing. Case in point would be a GT30R with a 76mm wheel w/ .84 A/R compared to the GT35R with a .63 A/R? According to the Garrett catalog they move the same amount of mass.

What about the compressor size? I noticed that a 3071 is available with a .60 A/R which is the same as a GT30R. Would the bigger wheel make that much of a difference? If you used the bigger compressor housing on the 3071 and a bigger .83 turbine A/R, wouldn't that produce roughly the same power as a GT30R but spool faster?

DynoFlash

iTrader: (91)

Great news

I'll be calling you next week about that new fuel system you have, I need to get rid of my fuel cell to be NHRA SRWD legal for next year

Happy new year