comparing manifolds
Jan 24, 2005 | 10:49 PM
#93
Back from a day of track testing...the new manifold/Tial wastegate spools the gt35R 700 rmp sooner...so ugly or not the design works better than any other manifold/wastegate combo I've tried to date with this turbo. That's good enough for me...Thanks David/Ron.
Jan 24, 2005 | 11:48 PM
#94
Originally Posted by robi
Back from a day of track testing...the new manifold/Tial wastegate spools the gt35R 700 rmp sooner...so ugly or not the design works better than any other manifold/wastegate combo I've tried to date with this turbo. That's good enough for me...Thanks David/Ron.
Jan 25, 2005 | 12:03 AM
#95
Back from a day of track testing...the new manifold/Tial wastegate spools the gt35R 700 rmp sooner...so ugly or not the design works better than any other manifold/wastegate combo I've tried to date with this turbo. That's good enough for me...Thanks David/Ron
Kewl, send me one so I can test it and I will write a review, ok?
Jan 25, 2005 | 03:00 AM
#96
Originally Posted by Derek888
which manifold is this?
Jan 25, 2005 | 04:00 AM
#97
Shearer manifold looks pretty clean and from what Robi says, it spools much earlier but thats a custom made manifold? 2 years against cracking is not bad but the only problem for me is that it needs to be installed by an authorized dealer. To bad I live in Taiwan so no warranty for me.
It would be nice if someone could test both RNR and Shearer manifolds and do a comparison to see the spool and hp.
It would be nice if someone could test both RNR and Shearer manifolds and do a comparison to see the spool and hp.
Jan 25, 2005 | 11:11 AM
#98
I'm glad to hear that Robert, that tickles my pickle. David deserves the thanks. it was all his idea.
I would be down for a turbo test when/if I ever get caught up. I have to finish up a slew of manifolds and have 4 motorcycles to do immediately following. There would have to be some base guidelines such as actually owning a dyno, a known shop that doesn't work out of his basement, a knowledgeable and respected tuner(ie Siebles) at the controls, very good documentation(both notes and photos), a common turbo between all kits, etc...
Such a test could prove to be difficult to pull off. There would have to be no room for argument as to why Brand X had better circumstances than Brand Y. If not it would not be worth any of our time or effort to devote to such a project.
I would be down for a turbo test when/if I ever get caught up. I have to finish up a slew of manifolds and have 4 motorcycles to do immediately following. There would have to be some base guidelines such as actually owning a dyno, a known shop that doesn't work out of his basement, a knowledgeable and respected tuner(ie Siebles) at the controls, very good documentation(both notes and photos), a common turbo between all kits, etc...
Such a test could prove to be difficult to pull off. There would have to be no room for argument as to why Brand X had better circumstances than Brand Y. If not it would not be worth any of our time or effort to devote to such a project.
Jan 25, 2005 | 12:17 PM
#99
Originally Posted by Derek888
2 years against cracking is not bad but the only problem for me is that it needs to be installed by an authorized dealer. To bad I live in Taiwan so no warranty for me.
I'm working on a nice laser cut and bent sheetmetal bracket to work with 4 bolt and 5 bolt t3 housings right now, hopefully they'll be done within a week or two.
Jan 25, 2005 | 06:51 PM
#103
I had one of the first 2 prototypes...and with the Buschur manifold you get the DMS hotside (larger= laggier ayk) plain bearing center...etc...so everything adds up to a large gain..
Jan 26, 2005 | 07:49 AM
#104
Mister2,
Our manifolds are not built my Mitsubishi, but thanks for the compliment
That is our own design. The prototype was built here in this building and then sent out where we paid a rediculous amount of money to have the core box built so it could be cast in a foundry. The manifolds then go to the foundry where they are poured using Ni-cast material, this material is very durable in high heat conditions as a manifold would be used in. Then they are sent to the CNC shop where they are are machined flat and have the holes for mounting drilled in them.
We have run out of the first 50 cast manifolds we had done (well, we have two left). This next batch of manifolds have had a re-design done to the collector on them helping the ports merge better into the turbo.
The entire header vs. cast manifold fight can continue on and on. Personally I have been going back and forth between the two for well over 10 years. When Al was here a few weeks ago we got on this same subject and I pulled out some pictures from back in '92-'93 of the headers we built and some others we just bought and tested on my old Talon.
The headers then were built from .065 304 and 321 SS. Many were built from mild steel. None of them lasted. I had a header break completely in two and the only thing that kept it from falling off and under the car was the oil feed and return line.
There are some companies, like Shearer's, using some super thick tubing now that I have to admit probably won't break for atleast a VERY long time. I still won't say that I truly believe that this thick tubing will NEVER break. I have just personally have seen NO turbo tubular header ever hold up forever. Time will tell. Ron (Shearer) has built a few headers for us over the last few months for custom jobs. I personally had no desire to do it and wouldn't stand behind one if I did. (Because of past luck) Ron is a longtime customer of ours and live nearby. He wanted the work, did a good job for us, and has offered a warranty to the customers that needed these headers.
My tube chassis car ran an HKS T4 (cast manifold on it. About 5 years ago when we were flow benching some heads we bolted the manifold to the head to see what would happen to the exhaust port. (This is testing you will find MOST of these other self proclaimed expert shops don't bother doing) The finding was the car needed a header. We then tested the Turbonetics cast manifold, it was worse. Then we threw a ported 2g manifold on the bench and found out that while it wasn't the greatest it wasn't as bad as we would have thought.
I went to work and built a header for the car. The guy that owns the flow bench laughed at me. He said, "You have to know what you are doing, you can't just build a header." Back to work I went. Not sure if any of you have seen this particular header when we were running the car but it IS an equal length header, comes straight out of the header, very minimal bends in it. When it was done I took it back to the flow bench and bolted it to the cylinder head. WOW! Adding this header to the car was like picking up an additional .250 lift on the exhaust cam! The head just flat out came alive.
Back on the dyno with it. Now this is where my memory gets a little bit fuzzy to be honest. IF I remember right the car picked up NOTHING for peak power. I was VERY disapointed by this. One thing that did change though was the car was able to get onto the two step (auto trans) without the nitrous. It could never do that before.
The next race we had was at Route 66. There the car picked up an additional 6 mph. Pretty amazing, the thing that still puzzles me is that I don't remember a gain on the dyno at all. Looking back I am going to guess the gain was in the midrange and I just didn't pay any mind to it. Many shops don't look at the curve, just the peak number, 5 years ago when I first got the dyno I was one of those guys.
Our Conquest has gone a best of 8.61 at 158 mph. The car weighs in with driver at 2750 pounds, has power windows, carpet, brake lights, turn signals, "head lights", sunroof, carpet etc. Can be driven on the street. 10" tire, RWD. The car runs a 2.0 liter (not stroker) and a ported 2G manifold. Wait, it gets better. We wanted to use a standard T4 turbine housing on this 2G manifold. Had not time to build a header. So at the round outlet of this 2g manifold we simply MIG welded a SQUARE T4 flange right to it. Ugliest worste flowing thing you could imagine. Then we bored a hole in the top of the #4 runner and MIG welded a Turbonetics racegate flange to that. UGLY!!! Well this is what was on the car all last year, nothing cracked or broke and the car ran that 8.61 at 158 mph with that conglomeration of crap.
I just completed a header that is a shorter version of what I built for our tube chassis Talon for the Conquest. We want to get that car into the 8.2-8.30's for this season coming up and it is going to need some additional MPH to get there. I'm hoping for the same results.
We built our cast iron manifolds for the EVO's because of all this past experience I just wrote about and some others I didn't want to bore you guys with. I feel for any car that is going to be driven on the street that cast is the way to go. The reliability can't be beat, the flow if designed correctly will be close enough that risking the reliability is just a bad idea.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Our manifolds are not built my Mitsubishi, but thanks for the compliment
That is our own design. The prototype was built here in this building and then sent out where we paid a rediculous amount of money to have the core box built so it could be cast in a foundry. The manifolds then go to the foundry where they are poured using Ni-cast material, this material is very durable in high heat conditions as a manifold would be used in. Then they are sent to the CNC shop where they are are machined flat and have the holes for mounting drilled in them.We have run out of the first 50 cast manifolds we had done (well, we have two left). This next batch of manifolds have had a re-design done to the collector on them helping the ports merge better into the turbo.
The entire header vs. cast manifold fight can continue on and on. Personally I have been going back and forth between the two for well over 10 years. When Al was here a few weeks ago we got on this same subject and I pulled out some pictures from back in '92-'93 of the headers we built and some others we just bought and tested on my old Talon.
The headers then were built from .065 304 and 321 SS. Many were built from mild steel. None of them lasted. I had a header break completely in two and the only thing that kept it from falling off and under the car was the oil feed and return line.
There are some companies, like Shearer's, using some super thick tubing now that I have to admit probably won't break for atleast a VERY long time. I still won't say that I truly believe that this thick tubing will NEVER break. I have just personally have seen NO turbo tubular header ever hold up forever. Time will tell. Ron (Shearer) has built a few headers for us over the last few months for custom jobs. I personally had no desire to do it and wouldn't stand behind one if I did. (Because of past luck) Ron is a longtime customer of ours and live nearby. He wanted the work, did a good job for us, and has offered a warranty to the customers that needed these headers.
My tube chassis car ran an HKS T4 (cast manifold on it. About 5 years ago when we were flow benching some heads we bolted the manifold to the head to see what would happen to the exhaust port. (This is testing you will find MOST of these other self proclaimed expert shops don't bother doing) The finding was the car needed a header. We then tested the Turbonetics cast manifold, it was worse. Then we threw a ported 2g manifold on the bench and found out that while it wasn't the greatest it wasn't as bad as we would have thought.
I went to work and built a header for the car. The guy that owns the flow bench laughed at me. He said, "You have to know what you are doing, you can't just build a header." Back to work I went. Not sure if any of you have seen this particular header when we were running the car but it IS an equal length header, comes straight out of the header, very minimal bends in it. When it was done I took it back to the flow bench and bolted it to the cylinder head. WOW! Adding this header to the car was like picking up an additional .250 lift on the exhaust cam! The head just flat out came alive.
Back on the dyno with it. Now this is where my memory gets a little bit fuzzy to be honest. IF I remember right the car picked up NOTHING for peak power. I was VERY disapointed by this. One thing that did change though was the car was able to get onto the two step (auto trans) without the nitrous. It could never do that before.
The next race we had was at Route 66. There the car picked up an additional 6 mph. Pretty amazing, the thing that still puzzles me is that I don't remember a gain on the dyno at all. Looking back I am going to guess the gain was in the midrange and I just didn't pay any mind to it. Many shops don't look at the curve, just the peak number, 5 years ago when I first got the dyno I was one of those guys.
Our Conquest has gone a best of 8.61 at 158 mph. The car weighs in with driver at 2750 pounds, has power windows, carpet, brake lights, turn signals, "head lights", sunroof, carpet etc. Can be driven on the street. 10" tire, RWD. The car runs a 2.0 liter (not stroker) and a ported 2G manifold. Wait, it gets better. We wanted to use a standard T4 turbine housing on this 2G manifold. Had not time to build a header. So at the round outlet of this 2g manifold we simply MIG welded a SQUARE T4 flange right to it. Ugliest worste flowing thing you could imagine. Then we bored a hole in the top of the #4 runner and MIG welded a Turbonetics racegate flange to that. UGLY!!! Well this is what was on the car all last year, nothing cracked or broke and the car ran that 8.61 at 158 mph with that conglomeration of crap.
I just completed a header that is a shorter version of what I built for our tube chassis Talon for the Conquest. We want to get that car into the 8.2-8.30's for this season coming up and it is going to need some additional MPH to get there. I'm hoping for the same results.
We built our cast iron manifolds for the EVO's because of all this past experience I just wrote about and some others I didn't want to bore you guys with. I feel for any car that is going to be driven on the street that cast is the way to go. The reliability can't be beat, the flow if designed correctly will be close enough that risking the reliability is just a bad idea.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Jan 26, 2005 | 08:15 AM
#105
There are too many variables on Robi's car to put the entire 700 rpm spool up onto the header. (There goes that selling point for you RNR)
The GT35R that is on Robert's (Robi's) car was first tested with our cast manifold, internal wastegate and the Mitsubishi style turbine housing. When re-installed on the car it went on with an external wastegate, the matching T3 style turbine housing that is normally used on the GT35r's and the header.
To be honest, not taking anything away from the header or trying to add to our manifold design, the gains in spool up came from the turbine housing change.
The proof of this can be seen in our turbo kit on Pruven's shop car. Changing nothing else on the car except for turbine housings the spool up was greatly increased and so was the top horsepower. Actually 90 whp was the gain. This was with our cast manifold and an external gate mounted directly to it. Only change was the turbine housing.
I don't believe a large gain in spool up is going to be seen with these comparisons.
BTW, Victory isn't even a shop anymore, he is a banker if I remember right. Probably won't be a good place to have a test done.
We have a dyno and a flowbench. I'd be willing to do a shootout and as I would be accused of being biased, which I wouldn't be, I'd also be willing to have witnesses here for the testing.
Something else that I would like to point out. RNR, don't take this as an insult or slam, it is an observation. The coating that RNR uses on their headers makes them look extremely uniform and pretty. The headers Ron builds do not have a coating on them. Unless you are a fabricator and appreciate hand built/fabricated things, the RNR header is going to be much more appealing to the eye than Ron's. Proof of this is the header I just built here. When it was done I showed all the guys in the shop. They all gave me a half assed, "yeah nice." I then sent it out with a bunch of other parts to have ceramic coated. The parts came in here Monday. Everyone in the shop wanted to hold it and check it out when it came back. First words out of my brothers mouth was, "We're putting that on my EVO right?"
The ceramic coating makes a huge difference in appearance, that is my only point.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
The GT35R that is on Robert's (Robi's) car was first tested with our cast manifold, internal wastegate and the Mitsubishi style turbine housing. When re-installed on the car it went on with an external wastegate, the matching T3 style turbine housing that is normally used on the GT35r's and the header.
To be honest, not taking anything away from the header or trying to add to our manifold design, the gains in spool up came from the turbine housing change.
The proof of this can be seen in our turbo kit on Pruven's shop car. Changing nothing else on the car except for turbine housings the spool up was greatly increased and so was the top horsepower. Actually 90 whp was the gain. This was with our cast manifold and an external gate mounted directly to it. Only change was the turbine housing.
I don't believe a large gain in spool up is going to be seen with these comparisons.
BTW, Victory isn't even a shop anymore, he is a banker if I remember right. Probably won't be a good place to have a test done.
We have a dyno and a flowbench. I'd be willing to do a shootout and as I would be accused of being biased, which I wouldn't be, I'd also be willing to have witnesses here for the testing.
Something else that I would like to point out. RNR, don't take this as an insult or slam, it is an observation. The coating that RNR uses on their headers makes them look extremely uniform and pretty. The headers Ron builds do not have a coating on them. Unless you are a fabricator and appreciate hand built/fabricated things, the RNR header is going to be much more appealing to the eye than Ron's. Proof of this is the header I just built here. When it was done I showed all the guys in the shop. They all gave me a half assed, "yeah nice." I then sent it out with a bunch of other parts to have ceramic coated. The parts came in here Monday. Everyone in the shop wanted to hold it and check it out when it came back. First words out of my brothers mouth was, "We're putting that on my EVO right?"
The ceramic coating makes a huge difference in appearance, that is my only point.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com