What Gives?: Twin Disc Systems by the numbers
Feb 7, 2005, 03:27 PM
#31
[QUOTE=TalonRcR]That seems to be the problem from what I've seen. Why not make a material that absorbs it and does not cause it to warp?
You're comparing an RPS Twin Carbon to (Seans clutch) a Exedy Twin Metallic. I would not expect the Twin Metallic to our perform a Twin Carbon. I for one would never recommend a Twin Metallic when a Twin Carbon better suited for the application. How long would it take to heat up to the point of warping - I doubt it can be done. But I pose the same question about the RPS, however I know it doesn't have the testing/use behind it.
Our information show different. The one Exedy had in their possession (that failed) weighed in at 48 LBS... verified by shipping weight at UPS (shipping weight was actually 52lbs).
I haven't read too many reviews on the RPS from independant users. However all Exedy reviews echo this.
So what % of Evo oweners do you think will need the RPS? 3%? Less?
Cusco, Ralliart, Exedy, RPS and many others... please note Exedy holds a patent on the pull-type system which is used by many other manufactures which I would rather not say due to protecting their customer relationships.
-M
Originally Posted by TalonRcR
People know the benefits already of exedy thats why they bought one. Ryan at RNR runs the CC clutch and he says it works great and his car is over 600whp. A twin plate would last 7 passes at that HP from what I can tell from sean's experiences.
7 passes at 400hp is not long life I know its a normal twin but honestly how many passes before the warpage occurs in a carbon? Carbon has to heat up before it grabs better causing even more heat.
7 passes at 400hp is not long life I know its a normal twin but honestly how many passes before the warpage occurs in a carbon? Carbon has to heat up before it grabs better causing even more heat.
Originally Posted by TalonRcR
29lbs 12.5oz vs 28lb 8oz for exedy? Dont see weight being an issue.
Originally Posted by TalonRcR
From the reviews I've read on evoM people say it drives like a stock clutch and the guys wife can drive it with no problems.
Originally Posted by TalonRcR
I dont work for either company so I sell what works good and makes the customers happy. If it makes them happy to by an exedy I sell it to them. But I recommend the BEST product for the money and longevity.
Originally Posted by TalonRcR
Who else makes a twin disc pull type clutch for evo?
-M
Feb 7, 2005, 03:29 PM
#32
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Our information show different. The one Exedy had in their possession (that failed) weighed in at 48 LBS... verified by shipping weight at UPS (shipping weight was actually 52lbs).
I can post the pics of it on a scale if it will make you feel better. UPS overbills me all the time and my sale is right. Also according to UPS the Exedy twin plate weighs 38lbs. If you want to compare ups #'s but that has nothing to do with actual weight some stupid ups scale then divide by 192 hehe.
Chris
I can post the pics of it on a scale if it will make you feel better. UPS overbills me all the time and my sale is right. Also according to UPS the Exedy twin plate weighs 38lbs. If you want to compare ups #'s but that has nothing to do with actual weight some stupid ups scale then divide by 192 hehe.
Chris
Last edited by TalonRcR; Feb 7, 2005 at 03:33 PM.
Feb 7, 2005, 03:31 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by MattGold
Cusco, Ralliart, Exedy, RPS and many others... please note Exedy holds a patent on the pull-type system which is used by many other manufactures which I would rather not say due to protecting their customer relationships.
-M
-M
Chris
Feb 7, 2005, 03:35 PM
#34
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I have a few questions regarding the "apples vs. apples" comparison in this "research". Why are you using a picture of the Pressure Plate Casting where the disc contacts and compare it with the Flywheel of the RPS setup? On a side note - if you compare Flywheels - the Exedy is half the weight of the RPS flywheel (which is a hunk of Steel that has been turned down) where Exedy’s is a Chrome-Moly forged flywheel. Point being - you're not comparing apples with apples.
As for the size comparison of the discs, the reason Exedy has smaller discs is to attain a lower inertia on the discs. A lower inertia results in quicker shifting. Exedy achieves more than half the inertia compared to the RPS clutch discs.
The technology RPS uses is primitive - No company like AP Racing, Tilton or ATS (or any reputable carbon clutch manufacturer) uses this type of technology.
In fact are you aware, RPS is so far behind the manufacturing curve - they use the Exedy OEM Replacement Stock cover in their setup. So any attempt to degrade the Exedy product would in fact reflect on the RPS as well. On this note, the reason the RPS clutch is larger in diameter, heavier, and primative is because they don’t have a clutch cover that they manufacture for their setup. They use – as stated – the standard Exedy OEM Cover.
Total approx. weight of RPS setup is 48lbs (Flywheel, Cover and Discs) the Exedy Carbon Twin Plate setup is only 21.25 lbs. – Over HALF the weight... you do the math.
If people are concerned of square inches of surface friction areas, they have the option of using the Exedy Triple Plate, which will increase the total friction area considerably.
Further, Exedy has non-public photos of *failed* RPS Carbon's which, never even made it if the Dyno, let alone to the level of "2nd Gear Burnouts". But due to Exedy’s policy, they will not give me them for posting at this stage.
As for the size comparison of the discs, the reason Exedy has smaller discs is to attain a lower inertia on the discs. A lower inertia results in quicker shifting. Exedy achieves more than half the inertia compared to the RPS clutch discs.
The technology RPS uses is primitive - No company like AP Racing, Tilton or ATS (or any reputable carbon clutch manufacturer) uses this type of technology.
In fact are you aware, RPS is so far behind the manufacturing curve - they use the Exedy OEM Replacement Stock cover in their setup. So any attempt to degrade the Exedy product would in fact reflect on the RPS as well. On this note, the reason the RPS clutch is larger in diameter, heavier, and primative is because they don’t have a clutch cover that they manufacture for their setup. They use – as stated – the standard Exedy OEM Cover.
Total approx. weight of RPS setup is 48lbs (Flywheel, Cover and Discs) the Exedy Carbon Twin Plate setup is only 21.25 lbs. – Over HALF the weight... you do the math.
If people are concerned of square inches of surface friction areas, they have the option of using the Exedy Triple Plate, which will increase the total friction area considerably.
Further, Exedy has non-public photos of *failed* RPS Carbon's which, never even made it if the Dyno, let alone to the level of "2nd Gear Burnouts". But due to Exedy’s policy, they will not give me them for posting at this stage.
The casting, disc, and flywheel all provide the same relative outside diameter....just where the ruler landed. The RPS flywheel is in fact forged, then machined....so a very similar "hunk of steel".
I realize the smaller diameter reduces inertia, but also with a loss in leverage.
The total weight of the RPS is 29 lbs. 12.5 oz. and the Exedy is 28lbs. 12oz. not twice the weight. Having more weight to the center will reduce inertia, "apples to apples" this is pretty close as well.
Regardless of surface area, the metal floaters in the Exedy Twin and Triple disc are cause for concern when launching. Once the metal friction material reaches a critical temp. it is going to fail.
This is not an "attempt to degrade the Exedy product", nor is this an issue with the OEM replacement pressure plate cover. I am simply bringing facts to light that I have been witness too on more than one occasion. I dont doubt that there are some horror stories associated with the RPS product line, its trial and error building clutches. I just think there is room for improvement if cars with 400+ WHP are toasting Exedy Twins on a regular basis with launches. It seems to me that heat is the culprit and carbon-carbon is the cure, not just RPS.
dru
Feb 7, 2005, 03:38 PM
#35
Matt,
Congratulations on your recent appointment to Exedy USA as the director of aftermarket clutches.
It seems somewhat disingenuous that you would refer to Exedy USA as "them" when in actuality you are a part of the organization, and the one responsible for dealing with all these aftermarket clutches.
I pull alot of clutches, I race alot, I know what I will see when I take this one apart, the failure modes are limited with a mechanism of this type.
I like the guys at AMS but I don't think that at 10.5 they are leaning very hard on the clutch quite yet, give them time, they do use the carbon clutch which is better for wear.
Al has broken a string of clutches, I won't get into detail here, but if you need to know the details I can let you know. He now has the triple carbon clutch and I will let him speak for himself on the reliability of the product he seems to be one of the staunchest Exedy supporters, would be good to hear from him on this subject.
On the subject of me being proactive, I am in dialogue with you now, you are a part of Exedy, it get's no better than this. There is no reason to hide any of this detail, people need to know the issues others are having, somehwat like a class action.
I would actually like to give the exedy another chance just to ensure it wasn't user error and it was infact something flawed in the design/application of the unit.
All the best hope to hear from you soon,
Sean
Congratulations on your recent appointment to Exedy USA as the director of aftermarket clutches.
It seems somewhat disingenuous that you would refer to Exedy USA as "them" when in actuality you are a part of the organization, and the one responsible for dealing with all these aftermarket clutches.
I pull alot of clutches, I race alot, I know what I will see when I take this one apart, the failure modes are limited with a mechanism of this type.
I like the guys at AMS but I don't think that at 10.5 they are leaning very hard on the clutch quite yet, give them time, they do use the carbon clutch which is better for wear.
Al has broken a string of clutches, I won't get into detail here, but if you need to know the details I can let you know. He now has the triple carbon clutch and I will let him speak for himself on the reliability of the product he seems to be one of the staunchest Exedy supporters, would be good to hear from him on this subject.
On the subject of me being proactive, I am in dialogue with you now, you are a part of Exedy, it get's no better than this. There is no reason to hide any of this detail, people need to know the issues others are having, somehwat like a class action.
I would actually like to give the exedy another chance just to ensure it wasn't user error and it was infact something flawed in the design/application of the unit.
All the best hope to hear from you soon,
Sean
Last edited by Sean I; Feb 7, 2005 at 03:40 PM.
Feb 7, 2005, 03:40 PM
#36
Originally Posted by TalonRcR
Hows the twin plate holding up in your car matt?
Chris
Chris
Still holds like a champ. It's streetable and has a half engaged "zone" that makes even uphill climbs a breeze.
-M
Feb 7, 2005, 03:44 PM
#37
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Hey guys at Logic - just wanted to know if this means that you guys are no longer selling these "E" brand of clutches anymore as listed in this thread on the vendor forum :
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=109101
As for all these questions about these "E" clutches I am not at liberty to answer now at legnth due to time limitations. When I have some time I will discuss this matter at length in the meantime I direct you all to my articles in Turbo Magazine October 2004 and January 2005.
Thanks Al
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=109101
As for all these questions about these "E" clutches I am not at liberty to answer now at legnth due to time limitations. When I have some time I will discuss this matter at length in the meantime I direct you all to my articles in Turbo Magazine October 2004 and January 2005.
Thanks Al
Last edited by DynoFlash; Feb 7, 2005 at 03:47 PM.
Feb 7, 2005, 04:09 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Hey guys at Logic - just wanted to know if this means that you guys are no longer selling these "E" brand of clutches anymore as listed in this thread on the vendor forum :
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=109101
As for all these questions about these "E" clutches I am not at liberty to answer now at legnth due to time limitations. When I have some time I will discuss this matter at length in the meantime I direct you all to my articles in Turbo Magazine October 2004 and January 2005.
Thanks Al
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=109101
As for all these questions about these "E" clutches I am not at liberty to answer now at legnth due to time limitations. When I have some time I will discuss this matter at length in the meantime I direct you all to my articles in Turbo Magazine October 2004 and January 2005.
Thanks Al
Quite the controversy....yes we still sell the Exedy brand, thanks for the bump. In fact Exedy has proven to be one of our best selling product lines over the past two or three years and we will continue to sell customers clutches to suit they're application. Exedy provides excellent customer and warranty service when needed.
Be sure to drop a few line into the discussion when you have a minute.
dru
Feb 7, 2005, 04:20 PM
#39
Originally Posted by Sean I
Matt,
Congratulations on your recent appointment to Exedy USA as the director of aftermarket clutches.
It seems somewhat disingenuous that you would refer to Exedy USA as "them" when in actuality you are a part of the organization, and the one responsible for dealing with all these aftermarket clutches.
I pull alot of clutches, I race alot, I know what I will see when I take this one apart, the failure modes are limited with a mechanism of this type.
I like the guys at AMS but I don't think that at 10.5 they are leaning very hard on the clutch quite yet, give them time, they do use the carbon clutch which is better for wear.
Al has broken a string of clutches, I won't get into detail here, but if you need to know the details I can let you know. He now has the triple carbon clutch and I will let him speak for himself on the reliability of the product he seems to be one of the staunchest Exedy supporters, would be good to hear from him on this subject.
On the subject of me being proactive, I am in dialogue with you now, you are a part of Exedy, it get's no better than this. There is no reason to hide any of this detail, people need to know the issues others are having, somehwat like a class action.
I would actually like to give the exedy another chance just to ensure it wasn't user error and it was infact something flawed in the design/application of the unit.
All the best hope to hear from you soon,
Sean
Congratulations on your recent appointment to Exedy USA as the director of aftermarket clutches.
It seems somewhat disingenuous that you would refer to Exedy USA as "them" when in actuality you are a part of the organization, and the one responsible for dealing with all these aftermarket clutches.
I pull alot of clutches, I race alot, I know what I will see when I take this one apart, the failure modes are limited with a mechanism of this type.
I like the guys at AMS but I don't think that at 10.5 they are leaning very hard on the clutch quite yet, give them time, they do use the carbon clutch which is better for wear.
Al has broken a string of clutches, I won't get into detail here, but if you need to know the details I can let you know. He now has the triple carbon clutch and I will let him speak for himself on the reliability of the product he seems to be one of the staunchest Exedy supporters, would be good to hear from him on this subject.
On the subject of me being proactive, I am in dialogue with you now, you are a part of Exedy, it get's no better than this. There is no reason to hide any of this detail, people need to know the issues others are having, somehwat like a class action.
I would actually like to give the exedy another chance just to ensure it wasn't user error and it was infact something flawed in the design/application of the unit.
All the best hope to hear from you soon,
Sean
The reason everything is "them" is because it is Exedy Japan that does our development, R&D and production. Exedy USA only sells/markets the product. This is very skin deep as far as the us / them goes... the US side of things is always trying to get Japan to step up on R&D, New Aps, etc (AWD 6-bolt and 7-bolt DSMs for example).
As far as being disingenious - I have been a user and supporter of Exedy LONG before an Employee... In fact I am in my whooping 2nd week of employement. No life long commitment yet.
I am here to try and *help* the Evolution community and try to figure out why any of our parts fail. It may be application or even user error.
Since I can't issue an RGA over the internet I will need you to do somethings the 'ol fashion way. Pick up the phone and give em a call.
I by no means am trying to hide anything, but the fact is everyone is quick to bash and not so quick to talk.
Give me a call, I will try to stay active on this thread, but I have a life away from work as well.
Phone calls often solve issues quickly and effectively, but these forums are a great source of information for the masses. However it is critical that the information is not biased, or at least *both* sides of the story are presented when an independant "research firm" presents information that is supposed to be "informative" not propaganda.
Sean - Call Me Tomorrow so we can actually make progress. If you need my number just ask whoever gave you my "title".
-M
Feb 7, 2005, 04:26 PM
#40
Originally Posted by MattGold
I am in the marketing deptartment at Exedy USA. I am not a "director" of anything. I coordinate between departments and try to keep everyone's head on straight.
The reason everything is "them" is because it is Exedy Japan that does our development, R&D and production. Exedy USA only sells/markets the product. This is very skin deep as far as the us / them goes... the US side of things is always trying to get Japan to step up on R&D, New Aps, etc (AWD 6-bolt and 7-bolt DSMs for example).
As far as being disingenious - I have been a user and supporter of Exedy LONG before an Employee... In fact I am in my whooping 2nd week of employement. No life long commitment yet.
I am here to try and *help* the Evolution community and try to figure out why any of our parts fail. It may be application or even user error.
Since I can't issue an RGA over the internet I will need you to do somethings the 'ol fashion way. Pick up the phone and give em a call.
I by no means am trying to hide anything, but the fact is everyone is quick to bash and not so quick to talk.
Give me a call, I will try to stay active on this thread, but I have a life away from work as well.
Phone calls often solve issues quickly and effectively, but these forums are a great source of information for the masses. However it is critical that the information is not biased, or at least *both* sides of the story are presented when an independant "research firm" presents information that is supposed to be "informative" not propaganda.
Sean - Call Me Tomorrow so we can actually make progress. If you need my number just ask whoever gave you my "title".
-M
The reason everything is "them" is because it is Exedy Japan that does our development, R&D and production. Exedy USA only sells/markets the product. This is very skin deep as far as the us / them goes... the US side of things is always trying to get Japan to step up on R&D, New Aps, etc (AWD 6-bolt and 7-bolt DSMs for example).
As far as being disingenious - I have been a user and supporter of Exedy LONG before an Employee... In fact I am in my whooping 2nd week of employement. No life long commitment yet.
I am here to try and *help* the Evolution community and try to figure out why any of our parts fail. It may be application or even user error.
Since I can't issue an RGA over the internet I will need you to do somethings the 'ol fashion way. Pick up the phone and give em a call.
I by no means am trying to hide anything, but the fact is everyone is quick to bash and not so quick to talk.
Give me a call, I will try to stay active on this thread, but I have a life away from work as well.
Phone calls often solve issues quickly and effectively, but these forums are a great source of information for the masses. However it is critical that the information is not biased, or at least *both* sides of the story are presented when an independant "research firm" presents information that is supposed to be "informative" not propaganda.
Sean - Call Me Tomorrow so we can actually make progress. If you need my number just ask whoever gave you my "title".
-M
Sean
Last edited by Sean I; Feb 7, 2005 at 04:29 PM.
Feb 7, 2005, 04:39 PM
#41
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anyone know how the ATS Carbon Twin Disc would be compared to the Exedy Carbon Twin Disc in terms of 1.) Reliability/Durability 2.) Weight 3.) Pedal Feel 4.) Strength ??
I am looking for a high-powered street application clutch.
I am looking for a high-powered street application clutch.
Feb 7, 2005, 04:43 PM
#43
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By the way, Exedy does give excellent warranty and cust. service, we had one of their single plates go out on a hardly increased power S2k and, after sending a service rep and all that fun stuff, they replaced it
Feb 7, 2005, 04:55 PM
#44
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wrong, i drive tractor trailer, with 14-15 inch disks, single, twin , triple, i have yet to feel one chatter in 7 years. another factor of chatter though is trying to slip a clutch with a very heavy clamp load, its engaged or its not.
Originally Posted by MattGold
Disc chattering is in NO WAY due to incorrect installation, or in anyway a problem with your clutch. It is just an inherant problem of *any* twin disc.
-M
-M
Feb 7, 2005, 05:13 PM
#45
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last time i saw al at the evo wrx meet the exedy guys said al has the carbon carbon by exedy. again thats what they said... i have heard alot about both clutches from many a source. and they both have there plus and minus factors.. but my reason for switching to the ats next winter is very simple. money. sure the ats costs more, but it costs alot less rebuild it. so if a weekend racer like my self can manage to actually kill the ats i will save a good chunk of money.. as well as the people you really run the car hard.. as far as clutch size,( like displacment) bigger is better. at a reasonable weight though..