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Flaw in Alcohol Kits?

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Old Mar 1, 2005 | 05:47 PM
  #31  
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Oh the buick boys ......mmmmmm been there done that almost 20 years ago.
I used water injection in 1979 on a 351 cleavand with a 12.5 to 1 motor to help with
detonation. Back then the car ran 11.90
But saftey should be first...
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 05:49 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Wrench
That's four thoughts Al!

Fan boy here watches speed channel and pit fires. It's a statistical anomoly waiting to happen. But hey, if you want to be the guinea pig, that's cool. Nothing like hangin' out on the edge. This is all said with a smile. Not trying to flame....D'oa! Did I say that?

I do like your idea of the 50/50 and would be interested to know what the highest non flammable percentage of Alcohol to water would be and what the percentage power trade off might be compared with straight alcohol. Anyone know?
I am recomending staight winshield washer fluid - anyone who wants to play scientist with various mixes - our kit can run anything from staight water to 100% alcohol

BTW - I have been told that windshield washer fluid can burn also - but did not get around to testing it yet
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 05:49 PM
  #33  
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Oh, I hope I dont hear on day an EVO burnt to the ground .......
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 05:49 PM
  #34  
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Do the buick guys run their alcohol injection system from Windshield Washer resevoirs? I really don't know the answer not trying to be a wise ***.
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 05:50 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Wrench
...would be interested to know what the highest non flammable percentage of Alcohol to water would be and what the percentage power trade off might be compared with straight alcohol. Anyone know?
I'm fairly certain that substances as low as 45% ethanol or so are flammable.

Other alcohols will vary in flashpoint and will vary in flammable concentrations with water. Denatured alcohol can be comprised of any of many different mixes of adulterants, and I wouldn't care to use it. Some of the denaturing compounds may actually reduce fuel octane, so be advised.
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 05:52 PM
  #36  
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It takes twice as much alcohol to remove then same heat as straight water, but alcohol adds fuel.
The best compromise is a 50/50 mix of water/alcohol or methanol. That's why I went with the system I have.
Coolingmist.com. $280, with water pressure indicator, blocked injector indicator, low fluid level indicator, simple install, used IC spray tank, install took about 3 hrs. I love it.
I run DISTILLED water(not tap) and mix with 20 below washer fluid.
22psi of boost, afr 12.2:1, 22 deg of timing on 91 OCTANE with no knock!
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 05:54 PM
  #37  
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When we ran the Buicks we had a NHRA fuel cell in the trunk with the NHRA approved brackets,one for race gas and a mini one for Water or alcohol injection.
Nice and safe....
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 05:55 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by westchester evo
Oh the buick boys ......mmmmmm been there done that almost 20 years ago.
I used water injection in 1979 on a 351 cleavand with a 12.5 to 1 motor to help with
detonation...
That's right.

The biggest benefits of alcohol/water injection are not simply to add a higher octane substance. The addition of water to alcohol improves detonation control beyond what's possible from injecting pure alcohol alone.

This is because water absorbs more heat and effectively cools the air charge. This is why water alone is effective at inhibiting preignition. When coupled with methanol, the combined effect is greater than either alone. A 50/50 mixture is a great starting point, and possibly the endpoint as well.

BTW, methanol is clearly the best alcohol for this purpose.
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 05:56 PM
  #39  
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Originally Posted by Ted B
Then tell me why you think water was ever introduced as an additive.
Its not what I think bro - its natural laws. Its all been sorted out long ago.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/naca_H2O.pdf
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 06:00 PM
  #40  
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Thats a great link. That sums it up....
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 06:01 PM
  #41  
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Ok lets just strap on a JET engine and go real fast........................
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 06:03 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Its not what I think bro - its natural laws. Its all been sorted out long ago.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/downloads/naca_H2O.pdf
That's right. That old NACA study from the '40s established water injection as a viable means of improving performance.

But you said,
"I disagree that staight alcohol is not as effective as a mix. The staright alcohol will always be slightly more effective than a mox with water as its a fuel and burns - unlike water."
To which I replied that a mix is indeed more effective than alcohol alone.
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 06:11 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I am recomending staight winshield washer fluid - anyone who wants to play scientist with various mixes - our kit can run anything from staight water to 100% alcohol

BTW - I have been told that windshield washer fluid can burn also - but did not get around to testing it yet
You're funny.

I just threw a match in my Pep Boys washer fluid. I need new eyebrows.

Match went out.

Can we test it on beer? Beer is good. It's plentiful too.

Which brings to question, if we run alcohol in the reservoir and it has a vent, would that constitute driving with an open container?


Old Mar 1, 2005 | 06:13 PM
  #44  
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Here's a little something which should be beneficial to those who are interested. It comes from a reference entitled,"The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine" by Sir Harry Ricardo.
Attached Thumbnails Flaw in Alcohol Kits?-ricardoresults.jpg  
Old Mar 1, 2005 | 06:15 PM
  #45  
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The washer fluid needs to be the "anti-freeze" or "20 below" type with methanol added. Make sure it's not the bug and atr remover type, too much detergeant.


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