412 tq (stock turbo) on 93 pump gas with Dyno Flash and Alcohol kit
Mar 26, 2005, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason Siebels
Alcohol/methanol does NOT contain oxygen! It has exactly HALF the BTU value as gasoline, that is why stoich for alc/meth is half of gasoline. Alc/meth also does NOT like to mix with gas (this is an easy exersize you can try with a clear glass.......) So running a mix of meth/alc and pump gas in NO WAY comes close to the safety of a good race fuel, you can't guarantee the mix in the combustion chamber enough to ensure it won't detonate! WHile it is better than just plain pump, that is where it ends. ALso a nozzle is not the best way to dipsense meth/alc into the air stream, methanol has a tendency to "collect" on hot spots then evaporate Which is good and bad. The good part is that it pulls heat out of the air charge, the bad part is the mixture is spotty. The best way to do this is with a seperate fuel system and staged injectors, this helps ensure the mixture will stay suspended in the air stream and not collect on the intake walls. THere is alot of misconceptions that Meth/alc makes more power than gas, this is an inaccurate conclusion. It allows you to make more power through the cooling effects, and hugely increased octane capabilities. The performance number of meth/alc is 160 octane!
Hope this helps!
Jason.
Hope this helps!
Jason.
As for the mixing of air and alcohol you should be advised that my Alcohol injection kit is so effective at amomization there is zero indicence of fuel puddling in the intake tract. The jet is really amazing and the mist is so fine and light that the stuff just instantly vaporizes. We inject a very small amount so the proportion is small. Sure, a multi port system with rising rate regulator would be nice - but few customers - IF ANY - would be able to afford such a set up and the cost would totaly negate the savings on the lower cost of pump gas and alcohol vs. race gas.
With all due respect, I have seen far more Evo engines fail with race gas on your AEM system this year than those which have failed with the stock ecu and alcohol/pump gas. In fact to date - ZERO engines have failed or had any problems with the alcohol injection kit. NONE. Statistically, I think your concerens should be directed closer to home.
Last edited by DynoFlash; Mar 26, 2005 at 10:23 AM.
Mar 26, 2005, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Jason - thanks for your comments, however the fact that Alcohol is oxygenated is NOT something that is a matter of opinion of conjecture - its a natural law and a fact of molecular chemestry. Alcohol contains oxygen.
As for the mixing of air and alcohol you should be advised that my Alcohol injection kit is so effective at amomization there is zero indicence of fuel puddling in the intake tract. The jet is really amazing and the mist is so fine and light that the stuff just instantly vaporizes. We inject a very small amount so the proportion is small. Sure, a multi port system with rising rate regulator would be nice - but few customers - IF ANY - would be able to afford such a set up and the cost would totaly negate the savings on the lower cost of pump gas and alcohol vs. race gas.
With all due respect, I have seen far more Evo engines fail with race gas on your AEM system this year than those which have failed with the stock ecu and alcohol/pump gas. In fact to date - ZERO engines have failed or had any problems with the alcohol injection kit. NONE. While, we all have heard the sad stories in the past year of failed engines tuned with AEM stand alones on race gas and puimp gas. Statistically, I think your concerens should be directed closer to home.
As for the mixing of air and alcohol you should be advised that my Alcohol injection kit is so effective at amomization there is zero indicence of fuel puddling in the intake tract. The jet is really amazing and the mist is so fine and light that the stuff just instantly vaporizes. We inject a very small amount so the proportion is small. Sure, a multi port system with rising rate regulator would be nice - but few customers - IF ANY - would be able to afford such a set up and the cost would totaly negate the savings on the lower cost of pump gas and alcohol vs. race gas.
With all due respect, I have seen far more Evo engines fail with race gas on your AEM system this year than those which have failed with the stock ecu and alcohol/pump gas. In fact to date - ZERO engines have failed or had any problems with the alcohol injection kit. NONE. While, we all have heard the sad stories in the past year of failed engines tuned with AEM stand alones on race gas and puimp gas. Statistically, I think your concerens should be directed closer to home.
Then what system do you run ?
Mar 26, 2005, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by TurbotrixRacing
Then what system do you run ?
Its great stuff
With proper tuning and use of the built in knock system it is a very safe and great system which I fully recomend and support.
However - it can be dangerous.
I am just trying to show the irony that you and jason seem to be fixated on warning people of the dire damger of my tuning on this car with alcohol - while I have not blown up ANY motors. I don't think its cool that you are telling people that my tuning is dangerous and saying what i am claiming is false or misleading.
I have no propblems with either of yoiu guys - but wont stand about as you take pot shots at me and my work.
I think its time to end this debate before things get out of hand - just a thought.
Last edited by DynoFlash; Mar 26, 2005 at 10:30 AM.
Mar 26, 2005, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I run and love my AEM system in my race car
Its great stuff
With proper tuning and use of the built in knock system it is a very safe and great system which I fully recomend and support.
However - it can be dangerous.
I am just trying to show the irony that you and jason seem to be fixated on warning people of the dire damger of my tuning on this car with alcohol - while I have not blown up ANY motors. I don't think its cool that you are telling people that my tuning is dangerous and saying what i am claiming is false or misleading.
I have no propblems with either of yoiu guys - but wont stand about as you take pot shots at me and my work.
I think its time to end this debate before things get out of hand - just a thought.
Its great stuff
With proper tuning and use of the built in knock system it is a very safe and great system which I fully recomend and support.
However - it can be dangerous.
I am just trying to show the irony that you and jason seem to be fixated on warning people of the dire damger of my tuning on this car with alcohol - while I have not blown up ANY motors. I don't think its cool that you are telling people that my tuning is dangerous and saying what i am claiming is false or misleading.
I have no propblems with either of yoiu guys - but wont stand about as you take pot shots at me and my work.
I think its time to end this debate before things get out of hand - just a thought.
My name got brought into this thread early on.. comparing graphs of mine to your alcohol car. Apples and oranges.. Jason was just backing up the fact that a alcohol was not as safe as race gas. Nobody is taking pot shots at you,, as i could care less what you do and how you do it. But when your comparing an ems car on race gas, with your alky car on pump.. that has not even a comparable mod i find i have to step in.. This debate didnt have to start in the first place ...
Mark
turbotrix
Mar 26, 2005, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by TurbotrixRacing
My name got brought into this thread early on.. comparing graphs of mine to your alcohol car. Apples and oranges.. Jason was just backing up the fact that a alcohol was not as safe as race gas. Nobody is taking pot shots at you,, as i could care less what you do and how you do it. But when your comparing an ems car on race gas, with your alky car on pump.. that has not even a comparable mod i find i have to step in.. This debate didnt have to start in the first place ...
Mark
turbotrix
Mark
turbotrix
I have no issues with TT and see no reason to continue this conversation
Hope to see you guys on April 15 !
Willyour new STI be ready that day also?
Mar 26, 2005, 10:46 AM
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I had a question for y'all,
im getting ready to put a boost controller in my car, and i was told its set at 8 pounds of boost on the stock turbo. I wanted to know how much can you boost it upto without blowing your **** up?
im getting ready to put a boost controller in my car, and i was told its set at 8 pounds of boost on the stock turbo. I wanted to know how much can you boost it upto without blowing your **** up?
Mar 26, 2005, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Jason - thanks for your comments, however the fact that Alcohol is oxygenated is NOT something that is a matter of opinion of conjecture - its a natural law and a fact of molecular chemestry. Alcohol contains oxygen.
As for the mixing of air and alcohol you should be advised that my Alcohol injection kit is so effective at amomization there is zero indicence of fuel puddling in the intake tract. The jet is really amazing and the mist is so fine and light that the stuff just instantly vaporizes. We inject a very small amount so the proportion is small. Sure, a multi port system with rising rate regulator would be nice - but few customers - IF ANY - would be able to afford such a set up and the cost would totaly negate the savings on the lower cost of pump gas and alcohol vs. race gas.
With all due respect, I have seen far more Evo engines fail with race gas on your AEM system this year than those which have failed with the stock ecu and alcohol/pump gas. In fact to date - ZERO engines have failed or had any problems with the alcohol injection kit. NONE. Statistically, I think your concerens should be directed closer to home.
As for the mixing of air and alcohol you should be advised that my Alcohol injection kit is so effective at amomization there is zero indicence of fuel puddling in the intake tract. The jet is really amazing and the mist is so fine and light that the stuff just instantly vaporizes. We inject a very small amount so the proportion is small. Sure, a multi port system with rising rate regulator would be nice - but few customers - IF ANY - would be able to afford such a set up and the cost would totaly negate the savings on the lower cost of pump gas and alcohol vs. race gas.
With all due respect, I have seen far more Evo engines fail with race gas on your AEM system this year than those which have failed with the stock ecu and alcohol/pump gas. In fact to date - ZERO engines have failed or had any problems with the alcohol injection kit. NONE. Statistically, I think your concerens should be directed closer to home.
As for the puddling.....Please....how exactly to you know? I have been playing with this stuff for years, and I guarantee you do NOT get the distribution you think you are getting. Under pressure the methanol condens's, and collects on the manifold walls!
Trying to tell me no engines have failed on the stock ecu and meth is about as accurate as telling me that I can go to vegas and walk out a millionair!
WHile I don't know how many engines have failed with a flash....an AEM...or any other system for that matter, I do know that NONE have failed with me on the keyboard! WHat does that mean.....well....it means that it is down to the setup and the tuner, and the ability of the owner to follow the tuners instructions! Bring me an EVO with a stock computer and a meth kit, and I'll blow that thing up in 10 minutes!!!!!!!!!!!
Feel free to run pump gas and meth at high boost all you want...it's just more parts sales for Buschur, T-Trix, etc...... If you want the best safety factor when you are pushing your car....run race gas with your meth injection! If you aren't pushing it....fine run pump with meth, it's better than nothing. To state that pump and meth is safer than just race gas is just not true!
Jason.
Mar 26, 2005, 12:43 PM
#98
Hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm. My tuning experiences with the methanol injection and pump gas are right on with what Al is saying. I agree that running 116+ octane race fuel is the absolute best way to go. The cost is retarded and most guys can't get it. Most customers I talk to are limited to 110-112 octane fuel. IN the case of those octane levels I agree with Al, the alky injection with the pump gas is just as capable of making power.
There's race gas and then theres RACE gas. I won't bother with less than 118 octane myself.
The alky kit Al and I sell are the same. Low level lights built in, pump warning lights built in and there is a gauge on the kits so you can keep an eye on what type of pressure the pumps are putting out.
I can't see inside the intake and see if it is puddling. Mark, when you guys get the alky kit you ordered from us just for the hell of it hook it up and watch the spray pattern of that alky coming out of the jet. It is VERY amazing at how well it is atomized, you'll be impressed. Actually, I hope the kit you guys are getting is something you are going to have a shot at dyno tuning, you will be sold on it I think.
That's all I have to say
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
There's race gas and then theres RACE gas. I won't bother with less than 118 octane myself.
The alky kit Al and I sell are the same. Low level lights built in, pump warning lights built in and there is a gauge on the kits so you can keep an eye on what type of pressure the pumps are putting out.
I can't see inside the intake and see if it is puddling. Mark, when you guys get the alky kit you ordered from us just for the hell of it hook it up and watch the spray pattern of that alky coming out of the jet. It is VERY amazing at how well it is atomized, you'll be impressed. Actually, I hope the kit you guys are getting is something you are going to have a shot at dyno tuning, you will be sold on it I think.
That's all I have to say
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Mar 26, 2005, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm. My tuning experiences with the methanol injection and pump gas are right on with what Al is saying. I agree that running 116+ octane race fuel is the absolute best way to go. The cost is retarded and most guys can't get it. Most customers I talk to are limited to 110-112 octane fuel. IN the case of those octane levels I agree with Al, the alky injection with the pump gas is just as capable of making power.
There's race gas and then theres RACE gas. I won't bother with less than 118 octane myself.
The alky kit Al and I sell are the same. Low level lights built in, pump warning lights built in and there is a gauge on the kits so you can keep an eye on what type of pressure the pumps are putting out.
I can't see inside the intake and see if it is puddling. Mark, when you guys get the alky kit you ordered from us just for the hell of it hook it up and watch the spray pattern of that alky coming out of the jet. It is VERY amazing at how well it is atomized, you'll be impressed. Actually, I hope the kit you guys are getting is something you are going to have a shot at dyno tuning, you will be sold on it I think.
That's all I have to say
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
There's race gas and then theres RACE gas. I won't bother with less than 118 octane myself.
The alky kit Al and I sell are the same. Low level lights built in, pump warning lights built in and there is a gauge on the kits so you can keep an eye on what type of pressure the pumps are putting out.
I can't see inside the intake and see if it is puddling. Mark, when you guys get the alky kit you ordered from us just for the hell of it hook it up and watch the spray pattern of that alky coming out of the jet. It is VERY amazing at how well it is atomized, you'll be impressed. Actually, I hope the kit you guys are getting is something you are going to have a shot at dyno tuning, you will be sold on it I think.
That's all I have to say
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Jason.
Mar 26, 2005, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TurbotrixRacing
You'd be surprised at how often people dont check things.. And running out of gas would be a good thing, compared to running out of alcohol. It will happen and you will read about it. Just a concern... Good luck
Mark
Turbotrix
Mark
Turbotrix
You bring up the question of what happens when the alcohol runs out. Im not sure about the basic kits out there but with my aquamist system there are many failsafes. One of these failsafes can detect clogs or loss of flow and will immediately send a signal to the boost controller, immediatley dropping it to a safe level. Most of the aquamist systems have this or it can be added as an option.
Mar 26, 2005, 01:00 PM
#102
That's part of the problem Jason. Many guys can't get 116 or better. They are limited to what they find at local tracks and since local tracks don't cater to turbo/supercharged cars they rarely have better than 112 at their pumps.
I have guys show up here with 106 and think it's race gas. Most of the time I can get the same tune in those guys cars with our local 94 octane from Sunoco.
These alky kits are making some huge safe power for many guys. One of the best things about it is you always have it. You can kick that Mustangs *** any day of the week as the boost can always be set high. No alky is used at all until the boost gets high enough to actuate the pump. Most cars I find don't need it to come on until OVER 15 psi. So driving around town the alky never gets used. Depending on your driving habits you can run for 1,000's of miles on one tank of alky.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I have guys show up here with 106 and think it's race gas. Most of the time I can get the same tune in those guys cars with our local 94 octane from Sunoco.
These alky kits are making some huge safe power for many guys. One of the best things about it is you always have it. You can kick that Mustangs *** any day of the week as the boost can always be set high. No alky is used at all until the boost gets high enough to actuate the pump. Most cars I find don't need it to come on until OVER 15 psi. So driving around town the alky never gets used. Depending on your driving habits you can run for 1,000's of miles on one tank of alky.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Mar 26, 2005, 01:41 PM
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A very interesting read on the chemical side of things...worth spending a few minutes here (found it today while surfing around for more info on aldohol injection):
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...manual1-2.html
Jason - while I understand exactly what you are talking about in terms of puddling, we can make that argument all day long with anything that is injected through a nozzle.....fuel injectors and NOS included. These cars are not running alchohol or methanol as their primary fuel source...they are using it to cool the intake charge. As Dave said above, if you are running low enough boost (on the street for example), the car never runs the boost/timing we are all talking about.
These are all just means to an end - each tuning system, be it an ecu, NOS, alcohol, methanol, corn meal, whatever, are only as good as the person setting it up, and tuning it. If the kit is well thoguht out, properly installed and tuned for my a competant person, bottom line is, it will work. The addition of a standalone never guarantees a successful running car - in fact, they can be the magic $2000 self-destruct box. Now, take a setup like Paul's car (which is the subject car we are talking about), use the alchohol AND a stanalone mapped by an experienced person, and I'd be the results are even better. But given what's been posted power wise, I think standalone is about the last thing on Paul's mind right now...and rightfully so! I know if I could have made that much torque on my Z without the addition of the standalone, etc that I invested mega time and money into, I would have in a heartbeat.
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...manual1-2.html
Jason - while I understand exactly what you are talking about in terms of puddling, we can make that argument all day long with anything that is injected through a nozzle.....fuel injectors and NOS included. These cars are not running alchohol or methanol as their primary fuel source...they are using it to cool the intake charge. As Dave said above, if you are running low enough boost (on the street for example), the car never runs the boost/timing we are all talking about.
These are all just means to an end - each tuning system, be it an ecu, NOS, alcohol, methanol, corn meal, whatever, are only as good as the person setting it up, and tuning it. If the kit is well thoguht out, properly installed and tuned for my a competant person, bottom line is, it will work. The addition of a standalone never guarantees a successful running car - in fact, they can be the magic $2000 self-destruct box. Now, take a setup like Paul's car (which is the subject car we are talking about), use the alchohol AND a stanalone mapped by an experienced person, and I'd be the results are even better. But given what's been posted power wise, I think standalone is about the last thing on Paul's mind right now...and rightfully so! I know if I could have made that much torque on my Z without the addition of the standalone, etc that I invested mega time and money into, I would have in a heartbeat.
Mar 26, 2005, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by davidbuschur
That's part of the problem Jason. Many guys can't get 116 or better. They are limited to what they find at local tracks and since local tracks don't cater to turbo/supercharged cars they rarely have better than 112 at their pumps.
I have guys show up here with 106 and think it's race gas. Most of the time I can get the same tune in those guys cars with our local 94 octane from Sunoco.
These alky kits are making some huge safe power for many guys. One of the best things about it is you always have it. You can kick that Mustangs *** any day of the week as the boost can always be set high. No alky is used at all until the boost gets high enough to actuate the pump. Most cars I find don't need it to come on until OVER 15 psi. So driving around town the alky never gets used. Depending on your driving habits you can run for 1,000's of miles on one tank of alky.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I have guys show up here with 106 and think it's race gas. Most of the time I can get the same tune in those guys cars with our local 94 octane from Sunoco.
These alky kits are making some huge safe power for many guys. One of the best things about it is you always have it. You can kick that Mustangs *** any day of the week as the boost can always be set high. No alky is used at all until the boost gets high enough to actuate the pump. Most cars I find don't need it to come on until OVER 15 psi. So driving around town the alky never gets used. Depending on your driving habits you can run for 1,000's of miles on one tank of alky.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Jason.