umiami80

iTrader: (1)

EASILLY The larger turbo is moving more air at the same PSI. Oh what is that word I used, AHHHHH yes CFM's. Which is WHY it makes MORE power at the SAME psi. 21 PSI on a 16G can make 350WHP. 21PSI on a 50 Trim can make you 420WHP and so on, you would also need more fuel, larger injectors and so on. THE VOLUME is increased and the stock IC is too small as these turbos flow upwards of 700 CFM's and so on. The stock IC flows 600CFM's max.



A Fmic needs to be able to flow a certain CFM, but if it is maxed out, then your pressure drops and you heat soak Sorry CFM's are a good measurement. Now if you use a straight pipe, it won't cool anything, the IC needs to have SOME restriction in it, as it breaks the air down into MANY rows and then the heat is dissipated, so you have SOME pressure drop, like less then a PSI on good IC's. SO to combat this greater flow you need a LARGER FMIC to be able to get rid of the heat faster The SMALLER stock fmic AND a larger turbo, it cannot flow the VOLUME the bigger turbo can flow, so it backs up, you get 2PSI+++++ Pressure drop, and a hotter charge as the IC is over worked.


See? That was easy. The Stock turbo is too small to MAX OUT the stock IC BUT adding a larger IC will help on day to day driving and traffic jam heat soaks and so on. But the Power Increase is negligable and you will get pressure drop.

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

i already said this. but you didn't solve the riddle... the point was that the REASON a bigger turbo needs an intercooler is NOT because of heat but because of air flow.

the SMALLER turbo working HARDER needs an intercooler to DROP TEMPS.

and you are wrong... pressure drop across an intercooler has nothing to do with heat soak... why would it? if you have MORE air that is HOT streaming through any type of heat exchanger there will be MORE heat exchanged which gives MORE likelyhood for heat soak.

so how does cfm say ANYTHING about efficiency... the straight pipe still flows as much cfm as you want... waht the hell does that say about cooling? NOTHING, which was my point.

perfect example has already been made... the speaco intercooler is a piece of ****... it can FLOW 1000 hp... but can it cool worth ****? NO it CAN'T.

if you truly want an intercooler that PERFORMS and doesn't just let air pass through... you gotta see some hard facts first. and that means seeing temp tests... not flow numbers... do you understand?


now i see you spreading fallacies and i have to correct you... breaking the air into more rows does not cool your air... in fact breaking into rows GIVES flow that you're talking about. intercooler is the fins cool the air and intercooler fins pose the restrictions inside the core... when there's more fins there is more cooling and more restrictions... when there are bumps in teh fins there's even more restriction... those restrictions SLOW DOWN THE AIR so it can be cooled, so that the heat can be transferd from the air to the metal instead of the hot air just whizzing by. air moving slowly through an intercooler actually increases its efficiency.

breakin the air into smaller rows actually gives LESS pressure drop because the smaller rows will maintain a useful venturi effect shooting the air through quickly, not allowing it to expand and slow down. letting the air expand into larger rows gives you more pressure drop... bad.

a well designed intercooler has these things in mind... it makes the rows small enough to maintain less expansion and gives good finning that maximizes heat transfer. in the nisei intercooler case they maximize the heat transfer and maintain the veturi effect and get NO pressure drop. this is because they maximized the heat transfer capabilities by adding surface area to the fin to bar contact (square finning), the use of this type of finning does not necessitate bumping or louvring.

umiami80

iTrader: (1)

What riddle, there is no riddle, you are missing the point. Larger IC needed as it can HANDLE a LARGER flow, Larger Turbo, larger flow, more CFM capacity, what's not to get?

The SMALLER TURBO can ONLY FLOW 550 CFM's, SO the IC CAN HANDLE the flow WITH its stock capacity. YOU INCREASE it's size, welp you increase your lag as the SMALLER TURBO can't fill it as easy, you also get more pressure drop across the board. It is VERY important to match parts. Now if you are doing sprints with your car, you may heat up the IC (drag racing) but the again ANY IC would heat up with a constant heat blast and then no air flow to to cool it.


You’re missing the point, and you shouldn't be talking as someone may read your words and take it as truth. CFM capacity has everything to do with its cooling efficiency but not in the "I'm gona make a stupid point and argue a flase statement". An IC is NOT a straight pipe at least not an air to air, so if you MAX OUT it's capacity, you flow more CFM's then it is designed to handle, welp you heat soak it and you get significant pressure drop. But and IC should have SOME pressure drop, as it causes RESISTANCE in the air charge and with this a heat exchange. If there were NO resistance, like your straight pipe, there will be no heat exchange. The CFM rating is the rating which allows you to understand the efficiency range of an IC and it's cooling efficency within it's design. You can have the most efficient IC in the world but if it can only handle 200CFM's, it ain't gona do **** , this is the point you are missing. An IC ratted at 600 CFM's will be able to accept and cool an air flow rate of 600 CFM's, after that you are forcing in more air then it can handle, and you get pressure drop and heat soak, the Stock turbo IS NOT CAPABLE OF DOING THIS as it can't flow enough volume to tax the system.

Understand? It is also hard to DYNO TEST an IC; in fact it doesn't work as the car is missing the proper High speeds of air hitting it. Taking off a stock IC after a run and bolting on a cooler aftermarket unit and running is not fair. Keep the runs going and you will see a drop in whp, see this is called skewing the results and you don't seem to understand this. Adding a larger IC to a STOCK turbo offers no significant gain, but your vendor seems to have gotten to you, and now you need to argue on the internet to justify your purchase, good for you




OK Mr. Internet commando, you just keep spurting off what your vendor told you Keep defending that purchase of yours .


Regarding your last novel, you need to understand that an IC and a turbo need to be properly matched, if one is too large or the other is too small, welp youz gona have problems with efficiency. What you also do not understand is that IC’s are rated in CFM or WHP compacity. Surface area of the rows is HUGE and is why a Bar and PLATE setup is better IMHO. I know you like to argue on the internet and try to show how smart you are, this is fine, but just make sure you know what you are talking about before posting your tirade, ok?

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

i didn't buy any intercooler... and no one was talking about dyno results... as i never said that those would produce results either. i said temp tests have the final word... don't understand why you're talkin' about defending purchases when you're the one that believes the number the hp rating... that is pretty much meaningless.

i'm not sure which part doesn't make sense to you... because i understand everything you're saying... you just somehow believe that being able to flow the air means you can cool it. in that case... all intercoolers that can flow 600hp worth of air cool the air the same right? buy any intercooler you want.

umiami80

iTrader: (1)

Horse power gains are the entire point, probably why you spend money on your car


Either way it is a GOOD mod to have and they look kewl. but is not needed.

fury656

iTrader: (6)

On the stock turbo change it if you absolutely must for the added consistency, durability and looks, not really any power to be gained. Just be sure not to go with too large of a core or you'll comprimise spool up.

Also, would it not be reasonable to say that if on the stock turbo you were running anything over 21psi that the cooler or simply more consistent charge temps afforded by running a larger intercooler would in theory allow you to do so with a degree of safety on pump? Atleast thats my thinking on it.

umiami80

iTrader: (1)

IDK, MAybe if you spike it to 28psi. But then again PSI has little to do with it, it is the CFM's of the turbo.

fury656

iTrader: (6)

Well say spiking it to 23psi on pump, which is slightly out of the turbo's efficiency range, the turbo itself is pushing hotter air therefore a larger cooler not as close to its max cooling efficiency rating might allow you to run the turbo itself out of its true efficiency range more consistently since you're more closely maintaining charge temps run after run at the elevated boost level.

NYREDEVO

iTrader: (1)

So correct me if Im wrong, general consensus your best bet on a STOCK turbo is just to get an AMS lower I/C pipe for a nice an easy 10HP (approx) and leave the actual intercooler alone till you make a jump to a bigger turbo?

umiami80

iTrader: (1)

Not really, as you now have an increased volume your pressure drop will be more pronounced and less power and so on. AS long as the Stock IC is getting airflow, it is fine and will cool fine even at 23PSI like myself and you


Yes get teh AMS pipe, I guarantee you will feel results, the stocker lower IC pipe is THAT bad, really.

gunzo

iTrader: (2)

gosh.. that's the biggest piece of wrong information I've ever heard ..

PSI HAS EVERYTHING TO do with it .. and I think TRINYDEX is trying his best to explain everything to you .. EFFICIENCY of the turbo is the PRIMARY reason why bigger turbos runs higher boost .. I can flow 550cfm on the stock turbo *(which itself is already a fallacy, since the 16g evo is not same as a std 16g)* at what efficiency range ??

CFM has NOTHING to do with the IC ability to cool because there's no relation .. likewise HP has nothing to do with cooling as there's again no relation .. you obviously don't understand this point ..

Again size has nothing to do with the ability to flow or cool .. trinydex's theory of a straight pipe stands every clearly .. how do you max out an IC ?? outflowing it ?? so if you outflow it .. what does it do ?? bottleneck ?? what happens when there's a bottleneck at the IC ?? restriction ?? all this I'm alluding to is it has nothing to do with cooling efficiency .. when you outflow some IC .. you're just creating a bottleneck which causes you to lose power .. not heatsoak/unable to shed the excess heat ..

You are very right that dyno does not tell you much about the effects of intercooler .. but your understanding of the IC and pipings are very skewed ..

I know it's hard to accept that you're wrong sometimes especially when you're so sure you're right (happens to me ) .. you try to correct people (good on you) and make them understand .. but when 2 or 3 people starts pushing the same point .. you could be wrong somewhere in the equation ... take it and rethink before continuing the fight if you still think you're right

PEACE

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

some subtleties that i wanna add... usually when you have a more efficient cooler you get increased restrictions, if you were to take a stock sized cooler and make it more efficient you'd most likely get something that was more restrictive and heavier.

for the same size... more restrictive means less of the beloved hp/cfm rating. hence the increase in size with most intercoolers. this increase in size gives you basically an air well... the larger you make an intercooler the more air can travel through it before everything gets backed up, at increased pressures the restriction will only get more pronounced, so you use this extra volume to delay the onset of the restriction. you bascially increase flow. think of it in terms of a circuit. if you have a wire that has some resistance in it.. the fatter you make the wire.. the less resistance, the longer you make the wire the more resistance.

so using this example if you step up the resisitance (intercooling fins etc) you can offset this increase by making the wire fatter (making the intercooler fatter).

and actually gunzo brings up a really good point... how do you max out an ic? actually that's a great question... cuz how do you? actually i wanna say that very few intercoolers are "maxed out" in application... none of them are so piping hot from taking heat out of hte air that they'd burn you on contact, no intercooler is going to stop cooling the air because it took in too much heat, even in the pipe example... the pipe will not get so hot as to not cool the air. of course in the pipe example the air is not contacting very much cooling surface area.

so it's more like... let's discuss how much cooling you can sustain with an intercooler. maybe i'm going off on the far end with this one. but in any case the end point is still the same. you want an intercooler that will give you the LARGEST temp differential in EVERY given situation, lots of times this isn't possible so you want the intercooler that gives you the LARGEST temp differential in MOST every situation. and of course you want all this with as little pressure drop as possible.

so notes on how to build an intercooler... first find out how much more restriction you will introduce by increasing the efficiency of hte cooler. this involves both revising finning AND introducing length to transfer tubes (the longer the tube the more time the air gets to stay in a "getting cooled" state, but the more restriction, remember the wire gets more resistance as length is increased).

then offest this increase by increasing volume to delay onset of restrictions (or just increase the volume for hp/cfm purposes)

then of course you work out the nitty gritty, get fitment and smooth endtank design, consider outside variables like radiator flow and all that stuff.

then try to tell everyone in the world why yours is the best... but for real... HAH, this of course can be done by simply performing the most successful temps test with the least pressure drop.

umiami80

iTrader: (1)

GOSH you gotta stop listen to vendors and what they are trying to sell you. 1st of all in order to even TOUCH 28PSi you need race gas which will all but destroy any detonation possibilities on a stock turbo. K'? Let's see what else you wrote.


YUP AHS nothing to do with it's size either, where is my T-25 I am gona make it more efficient so I can run 30PSI

WRONG but thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts for ya . Think about it..... you can pressurize a small straw with your mouth to say 21PSI, you think your gona be able to pressurize say a 4.0 inch pipe???? No, cuz you do not have the capacity to flow it, so PSI will drop. PSI is relative to the volume you are filling and the CFM’s being pushed by the turbo. More CFM’s more volume, more PSI able to be seen with larger IC’s and higher RPMS and so on. Get it? So larger IC, less PSI, more pressure drop.



Sorry that is false information. CFM’s have EVERYTHING to do with it. Seriously think about it. Take a T-25 and hell run as MUCH psi as you can possibly use on a STOCK Evo IC, not only will it have major problem pressurizing it and you get a massive pressure drop, but the IC will will also have no trouble cooling it as you are't even using less then 50% of it's compacity. It may be HOT as HELL, but the VOLUME will be so small that the IC will cool it easilly. The key is VOLUME . ALL PSI is, is the forcing a certain volume of air into an area, the turbo is limited to a certain volume and will make a certain PSI based on that volume. Think about if you tired to fill an IC 3 times the size it will NOT be able too, and pressure will DROP, how do you NOT understand this?

Naw, your missing the point more then Ben Affleck in the Movie Pearl Harbor. A straight pipe has NO relation to an IC, as it offers NO resistance to its flow and there for has almost NO cooling effect. Having a very SMALL ic welp your gona heat it up faster, and heat soak it faster, kinda why peopel run HUGE ic's. If what you said is true, well then we would be using a smaller IC wouldn't we . AN IC has rows and fins and their size and shape determine the flow and cooling effect. And yes certain aftermarket IC’s don’t cool as well (GREDDY) as they either flow TOO MUCH or not able to handle the higher CFM’s. Sorry man, just cuz you and Trinydex suck each others dick’s on this thread doesn’t make you right, it makes you gay .

Sorry sweetheart, the moment you mentioned PSI I knew I was gona have a field day with this fiction , Sorry buddy but you have no idea what you are talking about. Like I said before, just because you guys suck each other’s dick’s doesn’t make you right, it makes you gay . I still can’t believe you argued PSI, you seriously have no idea, except what ever your vendor sold you . PSI is an effect, not a product. You don’t really SET th psi, you set the volume of the turbo flow and the PSI is relative to the efficiency of turbo, it’s size, and the area you are trying to fill.


Easily, you flow more air then it was designed too. Its efficiency can be measured by its pressure drop and the temps the air comes out at. Run the stock IC with say a GT35R turbo. You will get a Massive pressure drop. Why? Because the air volume is too great and is being forced through, and will massively heat soak the unit, think of it as hooking up a garden hose to a fire hydrant. It can only flow the volume it is designed to flow. The opposite is also true., Running a MASSIVE IC and a Tiny turbo, not only will you have no shot at properly pressurizing the unit but you will get more lag as it takes longer to fill that area, you boost drop is going to be WAY more pronounced, and lower ultimate boost pressure.


AS far as a GOOD IC Unit? The Buschur is great, AMS and ARC Is also good too. But if you run a stock turbo having a larger IC will offer minimal gains at best, certainly nothing that will show up on a Dyno.

trinydex

iTrader: (12)

this isn't even up for contest anymore... you really don't know what you're talkin' about. and it's sad... cuz seriously... there are so many people in the world that don't know what comes outta their mouths... study some physics.

pressure drop does not = cooling, you can make cooling wtihout pressure drop, it takes a little ingenuity... but it can happen. perfect example is sqaure finning in combination with thin transfer tubes. this is not something that anyone told me... this is derrived, excuse me extrapolated from the results.

the only one suckin' dick is you... suckin' yer own. cuz seriously... you're puttin' yer dick in yer ear and yer tryinna think with it... doesn't work. and as a record... i corrected something that gunzo said. i'm out for the truth.

people run huge ic's for the reason that i specified already... increased flow, even you already said this. the purpose is to counter the restrictions impressed by TYPICAL intercooler design.

once again... moving air says nothing about cooling it. NOTHING, all it means is hte air is moving through. why do you insist on believing otherwise? it makes sense doesn't it? moving air through an intercooler does not mean you're cooling it. if you had an intercooler with no fins inside... you could move lots more air... and flow lots more cfm... have a higher "hp rating" right? big ****ty intercoolers are advertised like this all the time... but in the end do they offer the ultimate benefits... do they offer the ultimate performance? hardly...

so why do you think arc and ams or even buschur is so great? do you believe the temp tests... did you research what's inside each one? cuz i did... and if you think ams is great... you seriously got some dick stuck in yer ear... an intercooler that mimicks the stock end tanks... that's very cute...

i'm glad you're finally coming to the realization that running a small turbo very hard produces very hot air. in our stock turbo's case, this hot air will heat soak an intercooler that is poorly designed (the stock intercooler). the stock intercooler is an example of a unit that could be improved upon. basically... a better intercooler will outperform the stocker in every situation, even sitting on buschur's dyno, but of course the caveat is that the intercooler has to be better, better means it cools better, better means lots of thought went into its design. something that is built from the ground up particularly for a specific application... there's few things better than that.

bottomline is still the same... temp tests tell how well the cooling is happening. the dyno will show you your hp gains. it all makes sense doesn't it... one test does one thing that it says it does. and the other does also... wow...

bishiboy

iTrader: (10)

Personal experience: I replaced my stock with my own custom design based on a 12X3X24 bar/plate core. I have stock turbo. My MBC was set at 20PSI before change. I replace IC, didn't adjust MBC. On my initial test run, boost spiked to 27psi and blew off my IC piping at the TB (which hadn't been touched). This led me to believe stocker is restrictive, even with stock turbo. I had to turn DOWN my mbc to maintain 20 psi. I have since increased to 21psi due to the increased cooling of the charge air.
I also still run the stock lower IC piping and my own custom 2.5" upper, (which wasn't installed until a couple months after install the upgraded intercooler).
My pupose was looking at the BIG PICTURE for future mods, but it paid off immediately.
Larger, higher efficientcy, intercoolers are a good upgrade, even if planning on staying w/ stock turbo. (My oppionion)