AYC vs. PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE?
Feb 19, 2003, 01:44 AM
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AYC vs. PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE?
HI,
i'm new to this forum on the evolution. i've been reading the forum a lot and getting much useful information. However, Can anyone explain how no AYC being offered for the US spec EVOIII, can affect performance? ALso, people have been posting performance statistics of road and tracks testing, which was like a 68mpg slalom, and .98g on the skidpad. are those performance #'s from the US spec Evo, or Evo's with AYC?
Thanks a lot, and look forward to contributing and speaking with all you EVO fans.
i'm new to this forum on the evolution. i've been reading the forum a lot and getting much useful information. However, Can anyone explain how no AYC being offered for the US spec EVOIII, can affect performance? ALso, people have been posting performance statistics of road and tracks testing, which was like a 68mpg slalom, and .98g on the skidpad. are those performance #'s from the US spec Evo, or Evo's with AYC?
Thanks a lot, and look forward to contributing and speaking with all you EVO fans.
Feb 19, 2003, 03:45 AM
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Hi there Superstar 
AYC Evos have always been measured as being less performant than non AYC versions. This is due to a certain weight difference between the AYC and the non AYC models (non AYC weighing less) and to the fact that non AYC gives natural handling ad the limit of rear wheel adhesion, when AYC is unnatural.
Without AYC, on corner exit, you can get the car to drift nicely just like you can with RWD cars, only faster.
With AYC, when applying throttle at the rear grip limit on corner exit, you get a loud rattling sound, sometimes hear a tyre squeal, but the back end of the car wont step out. However, the front will now lose traction and you understeer out of the corner (I have yet to meet someone who likes that type of behavior).
You CAN get an AYC equipped car to break traction at the rear, by forcing it (scandinavian flick as if you wanted to spin it) but it feels very strange and insecure; you cannot tell how much the rear will break away beforehand and may get surprised: I once spun my AYC equipped Evo 6 TME on a small track here when I flicked it, it slid ok like 20 - 30° angle, then one rear wheel touched the curb and the car spun immediately and very violently. I took the AYC out after that and now the car is almost perfect, very neutral, high grip, oversteer on demand, etc.
AYC Evos have always been measured as being less performant than non AYC versions. This is due to a certain weight difference between the AYC and the non AYC models (non AYC weighing less) and to the fact that non AYC gives natural handling ad the limit of rear wheel adhesion, when AYC is unnatural.
Without AYC, on corner exit, you can get the car to drift nicely just like you can with RWD cars, only faster.
With AYC, when applying throttle at the rear grip limit on corner exit, you get a loud rattling sound, sometimes hear a tyre squeal, but the back end of the car wont step out. However, the front will now lose traction and you understeer out of the corner (I have yet to meet someone who likes that type of behavior).
You CAN get an AYC equipped car to break traction at the rear, by forcing it (scandinavian flick as if you wanted to spin it) but it feels very strange and insecure; you cannot tell how much the rear will break away beforehand and may get surprised: I once spun my AYC equipped Evo 6 TME on a small track here when I flicked it, it slid ok like 20 - 30° angle, then one rear wheel touched the curb and the car spun immediately and very violently. I took the AYC out after that and now the car is almost perfect, very neutral, high grip, oversteer on demand, etc.
Feb 19, 2003, 05:53 AM
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Claudius,
Thank you very much for your detailed responce. I just learned a lot in a few minutes, and now i'm not so worried about purchasing a US EVO 8 soon, or waiting to see if AYC becomes an option later in sales. Thanks again I really appreciate it, and will prob be talking with you more now that i'm signed up in this forum..
Thank you very much for your detailed responce. I just learned a lot in a few minutes, and now i'm not so worried about purchasing a US EVO 8 soon, or waiting to see if AYC becomes an option later in sales. Thanks again I really appreciate it, and will prob be talking with you more now that i'm signed up in this forum..
Feb 19, 2003, 06:21 AM
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And all these american EVO buyers wanna have the AYC!!?? Finally someone has shown the truth about this "wonderful" AYC.... Now the ACD would still be probably cool... Later..
Feb 19, 2003, 10:50 AM
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Always good to meet more enthusiasts, SuperStar
A lot of people on here started complaining when they heard that the US Evo will not have AYC and ACD, when in fact they have never tried the systems and dont know exactly what they do when actually driving the damn thing.
In fact, telling from the specifications, the US Evo will be the best Evo made, except for the engine, but you can upgrade that to 350 bhp with an exhaust and boost controller, so no worries there. The US Evo is only marginally heavier than the previous Evolution 7 due to even stiffer body and increased fuel tank and a few bits and pieces. It only appears heavier on paper because the weight given in Japan and Europe is without fluids and the US demand the weight to be quoted "ready to go".
The ACD (active center differential) is another thing that sounds good on paper but isnt that great in reality: it allows to vary the speed at which the center differential locks up and thus hw fast the 50/50 front-rear traction is distributed through the transmission. Which could lead you to believe you can set it to handle more aggressively (with an increased oversteer bias) when in fact that isnt possible. On tarmac, you get 50/50 all the time, on the gravel and snow settings, this is slowed down and you have more of a FWD car.
Another point to keep in mind is that "the more electronic BS you have on the car, the more electronic BS can break"
(I know someone who replaced the ACD in the UK and paid $1500 - $2000 for that) so the US Evo sounds like it will be as reliable as a 6, with a stiffer body. I couldnt think of a better car than that (stock).
A lot of people on here started complaining when they heard that the US Evo will not have AYC and ACD, when in fact they have never tried the systems and dont know exactly what they do when actually driving the damn thing.
In fact, telling from the specifications, the US Evo will be the best Evo made, except for the engine, but you can upgrade that to 350 bhp with an exhaust and boost controller, so no worries there.
The US Evo is only marginally heavier than the previous Evolution 7 due to even stiffer body and increased fuel tank and a few bits and pieces. It only appears heavier on paper because the weight given in Japan and Europe is without fluids and the US demand the weight to be quoted "ready to go".The ACD (active center differential) is another thing that sounds good on paper but isnt that great in reality: it allows to vary the speed at which the center differential locks up and thus hw fast the 50/50 front-rear traction is distributed through the transmission. Which could lead you to believe you can set it to handle more aggressively (with an increased oversteer bias) when in fact that isnt possible. On tarmac, you get 50/50 all the time, on the gravel and snow settings, this is slowed down and you have more of a FWD car.
Another point to keep in mind is that "the more electronic BS you have on the car, the more electronic BS can break"
(I know someone who replaced the ACD in the UK and paid $1500 - $2000 for that) so the US Evo sounds like it will be as reliable as a 6, with a stiffer body. I couldnt think of a better car than that (stock).
Feb 19, 2003, 03:50 PM
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Ya i've seen the Evo in rally competitions for the past few years, and when I heard it was coming to the United States I was estatic. I was actually going to ask you about the ACD, but you answered that too. This is good news, like i said before, I was worried about everyone complaining about AYC and ACD not being offered. I also want to bring the horsepower over 300, so thats how I will do it. Again thanks a lot, you've been a big help, and appreciate you sharing what you know from first hand experience
Feb 19, 2003, 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by Claudius
On tarmac, you get 50/50 all the time, on the gravel and snow settings, this is slowed down and you have more of a FWD car.
On tarmac, you get 50/50 all the time, on the gravel and snow settings, this is slowed down and you have more of a FWD car.
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Feb 19, 2003, 05:03 PM
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You're very welcome, SuperStar.
I suggest you simply try one when they become available and see what you think
You know, I have a 1997 Subaru Impreza GT turbo AWD and that feels like a ****in FWD. The adj center diff is a good idea to compensate for something they did wrong with the car to start with... Just got some adjustablme suspension for it to see what I can do.
All available to fit Evo 5 / 6 / 7 and soon the 8. From Cusco. 35 / 65 split. To drift like RWD LOL But with a good suspension system and settings, I doubt you need it (plus it's expensive!).
I suggest you simply try one when they become available and see what you think
Originally posted by Ben
I like the STI's DCCD system because when it's in the fully open mode it actually is sending more power to the rear(65%).
I like the STI's DCCD system because when it's in the fully open mode it actually is sending more power to the rear(65%).
Just got some adjustablme suspension for it to see what I can do.
Originally posted by Ben
It would be nice to have some better LSD's than the center and rear viscous units however.
It would be nice to have some better LSD's than the center and rear viscous units however.
LOL But with a good suspension system and settings, I doubt you need it (plus it's expensive!).
Feb 19, 2003, 05:21 PM
#9
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Originally posted by Claudius
The ACD (active center differential) is another thing that sounds good on paper but isnt that great in reality: it allows to vary the speed at which the center differential locks up and thus hw fast the 50/50 front-rear traction is distributed through the transmission. Which could lead you to believe you can set it to handle more aggressively (with an increased oversteer bias) when in fact that isnt possible. On tarmac, you get 50/50 all the time, on the gravel and snow settings, this is slowed down and you have more of a FWD car.
The ACD (active center differential) is another thing that sounds good on paper but isnt that great in reality: it allows to vary the speed at which the center differential locks up and thus hw fast the 50/50 front-rear traction is distributed through the transmission. Which could lead you to believe you can set it to handle more aggressively (with an increased oversteer bias) when in fact that isnt possible. On tarmac, you get 50/50 all the time, on the gravel and snow settings, this is slowed down and you have more of a FWD car.
Going back to the Tarmac setting - diff is mostly in the open state and allows more power to go to the wheels with the less grip and that is rear. That gives car less of the understeer and makes it more loose and quicker. It might not be as much fun to drive it like the one with the mechanical diffs, but it will be quicker!
Fedja
Feb 19, 2003, 06:09 PM
#10
It cracks me up when I hear people debate what Claudius says about ayc/acd. Afterall, he probably has more experience with and without the systems than anyone on this board. I'm sure his driving impressions are accurate. People get all caught up with the whole electronic gizmo thing...believing it HAS to be better. Evos haven't always had ayc or acd..I don't hear anyone saying negative things about the previous Evos handling.
Feb 19, 2003, 06:37 PM
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dont most people say the evo VI rs2 (or whatever... the one with recaros, big brakes, but no ACD or AYC) was the pinnacle of performance in the evolutions series? seems to me we are getting something very close to that...
Feb 20, 2003, 02:46 AM
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Mr AWD
I agree tarmac mode is the best for ACD. When I test drove the Evo 7 RS, I tried the other two settings and left it in tarmac after that. It's very neutral in tarmac, no oversteer tendency unless you transfer some weight (not really flicking it, but a little bit).
I dont understand your explanation, especially when you say "tarmac is the least of situations" or something; surely most people here drive Evos or will do so on the road or tarmac track?
I'd be interested to know why you seem to be so sure that ACD and AYC etc. are so much better than mechanical diffs. Were you convinced by the Mitsubishi brochure explanation? Or did you get that impression during a test drive of an Evo 7? Or did a friend of yours tell you? My Evo driving friends and myself dont understand your point; would you like to explain it to us, please?
I agree tarmac mode is the best for ACD. When I test drove the Evo 7 RS, I tried the other two settings and left it in tarmac after that. It's very neutral in tarmac, no oversteer tendency unless you transfer some weight (not really flicking it, but a little bit).
I dont understand your explanation, especially when you say "tarmac is the least of situations" or something; surely most people here drive Evos or will do so on the road or tarmac track?
I'd be interested to know why you seem to be so sure that ACD and AYC etc. are so much better than mechanical diffs. Were you convinced by the Mitsubishi brochure explanation? Or did you get that impression during a test drive of an Evo 7? Or did a friend of yours tell you? My Evo driving friends and myself dont understand your point; would you like to explain it to us, please?
Feb 20, 2003, 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by Claudius
I agree tarmac mode is the best for ACD. When I test drove the Evo 7 RS, I tried the other two settings and left it in tarmac after that. It's very neutral in tarmac, no oversteer tendency unless you transfer some weight (not really flicking it, but a little bit).
I agree tarmac mode is the best for ACD. When I test drove the Evo 7 RS, I tried the other two settings and left it in tarmac after that. It's very neutral in tarmac, no oversteer tendency unless you transfer some weight (not really flicking it, but a little bit).
Also posted by Claudius
I dont understand your explanation, especially when you say "tarmac is the least of situations" or something; surely most people here drive Evos or will do so on the road or tarmac track?
I dont understand your explanation, especially when you say "tarmac is the least of situations" or something; surely most people here drive Evos or will do so on the road or tarmac track?
"Second, 50:50 is only the case when diff is locked 100% and in the Tarmac case, this is the least of the situations that you will find it there."
And posted by Claudius
I'd be interested to know why you seem to be so sure that ACD and AYC etc. are so much better than mechanical diffs. Were you convinced by the Mitsubishi brochure explanation? Or did you get that impression during a test drive of an Evo 7? Or did a friend of yours tell you? My Evo driving friends and myself dont understand your point; would you like to explain it to us, please?
I'd be interested to know why you seem to be so sure that ACD and AYC etc. are so much better than mechanical diffs. Were you convinced by the Mitsubishi brochure explanation? Or did you get that impression during a test drive of an Evo 7? Or did a friend of yours tell you? My Evo driving friends and myself dont understand your point; would you like to explain it to us, please?
As of the why I think ACD is better then the mechanical diffs is partially explained in my previous post. For one thing, it is way quicker then anything else you can find in the mechanical world. If you would use the code to behave like the regular mechanical diff in the ACD ECU, you would get better version of the diff then mechanical one would be.
As of where my knowledge is coming from it really shouldn't matter in this case at all. If you think that I wrote something that is not correct up there, you should said so (and maybe explain why is that). Instead of calling on the sources of my knowledge and my past experience, which doesn't make much of sense to me. I have been racing with AWD cars for several years and I am do know things or two to make a comment here and there. I know that you have a lot of experience and I respect you more then a lot of people that post in here. But, that is not because of your past experience or whatever your people are telling you about the way things are It is just because your posts have good information contents and I can learn from most of them.
Have a
on me then!Fedja
Feb 20, 2003, 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by MrAWD
I do believe that the car equipped with those active gadgets can be improved beyond what any mechanical diff can do if you have the right code to download into the ECU.
I do believe that the car equipped with those active gadgets can be improved beyond what any mechanical diff can do if you have the right code to download into the ECU.
Originally posted by MrAWD
As of where my knowledge is coming from it really shouldn't matter in this case at all.
As of where my knowledge is coming from it really shouldn't matter in this case at all.
Feb 20, 2003, 03:26 PM
#15
Evolved Member
Originally posted by Claudius
The thing is: you dont
The thing is: you dont
Originally posted by Claudius
You dont have to say, but it could give us a better understanding of why you think what you think.
You dont have to say, but it could give us a better understanding of why you think what you think.
I though, I did answer that part of your question as well, so check it out again!Fedja