propellerhead

iTrader: (3)

Amen brother.

EDIT: Sorry, that was a "me too" post. The challenges to keep an AEM EMS equipped vehicle emission legal are considerable and should not be overlooked. Addtionally, while tweaking some tuning parameters such as cold start enrichment may not be challenging for some users, others are completely stymied and without a decent tuning resource at hand they are wasting their time and money unless they want to really roll up their sleeves and invest an immense amount of time tuning their car themselves. It's not brain surgery but requires alot of time to do it right unless you've got experience under your belt.

adam5743

iTrader: (3)

[QUOTE=madpacket]Here is my extremely lame attempt to put both cars' curves onto the same chart. As best I could using Excel I plotted at each 500 rpm tq & hp curves between 3500 and 7000 rpms (smoggy's chart doesn't hit 7500 and czr's doesn't start till 3500).

It's not terribly accurate nor insightful perhaps except for to confirm that smoggy's car lags a bit till 5250 when czr's has a dip until 6000.

Anyway if you were frustrated like me trying to mentally compensate/reconcile the two charts this may help a tiny bit. It certainly lacks the resolution of the dyno charts but gives the basic trend.

Finally- does anyone know how to calculate the area under the curve? Isn't that just a simple calculus function? Do any of the dynos do such a thing? If they did, what result would you get? hp/cm^2 or something?
[QUOTE]

I thought your graph looks nice! You could fit an equation (even using the graph options in Excel) to each section of the curve (torque or hp) and take an integral from one rpm value to the next. I don't suppose it would be a meaningful value but it should be useful for comparison purposes.

Just some brainstorming... I'm not claiming to know anything

erioshi

In spring I will re-builing my car with a stroker, and will have both an XEDE and AEM available to tune with. Once the car is past break-in, I'll see if we can hit the dyno and tune both set-ups on my car. They dyno owner and I are both interested in seing how this comparison plays out; he's the AEM owner - the XEDE is mine.

Unfortunately the Evo is down a couple of spots on the project list so this will need to wait.

silverEVO8

iTrader: (12)

There is nothing wrong with posting an agreement with a reasonable, factual post. I actually had almost the exact situation as Noize suggested to prove or disprove these theories. Actually, Noize knows first hand how the AEM EMS performs vs. a XEDE and Xflash in the same car.....

The actual truth in my experience is that the driveability issues posed by the AEM EMS were totally insurmountable by the "expert" who sold me the thing. Finally, other tuners who claim no expertise with the AEM managed to get the car in better driveability condition and made it put down 290 whp on a DD dyno. Neither George who initially "tuned" the car nor BadazzCR who attempted to help me later got more than 259 whp out of the same car.....

After a nightmare scenario of failures and problems created by Boost Solutions, Noize and Dustin removed the AEM EMS from my car (as well as the HKS RS intake) and Shiv flashed the stock ECU for the big injectors. Later, Andrew installed the XEDE and tuned it and was able to get the same 290 whp but with only 19 psi..... With no driveability issues or OBDII/emissions compliance issues.

In my experience, the XEDE/Xflash solution was far superior to the AEM EMS because of the absence of driveability issues plus keeping the car smog legal. I'm sure that there are some tuners out there who can actually mess around with the AEM until their car runs as well as stock. I'm also sure there are people who have problems with the XEDE and other piggybacks and/or reflashes. But in the interest of truth, I think I should post my experience.

Thanks


Oh yeah.. My car now puts down 249.3 whp on an DD dyno with only the XEDE. Nothing else, zero, nada, zip.

urBan_dK

iTrader: (6)

The integral of the HP curve would give you the distance travelled if the car was actually moving. The integral of the Torque curve would give you the total amount of energy expended by the car. There are a couple of factors like weight that would need to be accounted for in the final answer, but I'm too lazy to figure out exactly how they come into play.

Fourdoor

iTrader: (11)

Interesting comparison.... but I have to say, full 100% meth injection gets you somewhere around 105 octane at best and C-16 is 117 MON octane (MON is the lower reading of the two octane measurments used in pump fuel).... so I would tune much more agressively on C-16 than I would on pump gas with alcohol injection. That dip in the alcohol injection car looks like the tuner pulling back timing in the map to avoid knock with the alcohol injection, or the car getting some minor knock on the dyno and the AEM pulling the timing to compensate.

Keith

David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

The Truth Squad. I keep seeing this pop up and to be honest I find it pretty....disturbing.

First let me chime in and then I have some questions/comments.

First of all, doing a comparison like this is USELESS. I have said it a million times, if you are going to compare something you have to do it on the same car, same day same dyno. So use the Exede tune to the best of your ability (or someone else's) and then change over the EMS and do the same. At the power levels these cars are producing my guess is there won't be a huge difference in power, I'd guess the AEM EMS would win out but not by a huge margin.

2nd, comparing pump/meth to race gas is rediculous, there is NO comparison, NONE. If you consider race gas 110 octane or below maybe you can get close. Race gas in my book is 116+.

3rd, it take a TON of time to make an AEM EMS run LIKE stock. YES, it can be done. We entered the C&D Shootout this year. We had the EMS in the car. EVERY single editor that drove the car was amazed at how good the car ran...as in driveability. I pointed out to each one it was a complete stand alone ECU and they just could not believe it. My car, other than the lope, idles like stock with the 280 cams and 880 cc injectors, gets OVER 26 mpg, will not stall stumble or fart. I have probably a hundred hours of tuning invested in the car, maybe more. The good side to this is the basic map will work in just about any EVO I tune now. Install what I have 100's of hours in, make some fine tune adjustments and BAM, very nice driving EVO in a very short period of time. A good tuner will have a huge supply of maps that he can draw from. A tuner using the excuse that he didn't have time to do something is bulls hit. Take the time or take the time on your own car so you have a great base to work from. NO map will interchange between two cars, no matter how close they are and work perfectly. They will interchange enough to cut your tuning time from 100 hours to 2-3 hours though.

4th, not that I am being accused, but I feel I am as I am a vendor, but I do NOT suggest a standalone for anyone running our Stage 4 and that will run in the low to mid 11's. I try to keep a customer in his stock ECU as long as possible as I know they run extremely well, start well and offer dead on reliability. I just wanted to point this fact out, I do NOT recommend changing the stock ECU until you HAVE to.

Now, my question. Who dreamt up the Truth Squad? Who is it directed at? The guys that organized it, what makes you the experts to be the "Truth tellers"? I am curious as I have heard other people have been invited into these "truth" meetings and I haven't, does this mean I am not truthful?

Don't take these questions as attacks, I am honestly curious.

Something every person on the internet needs to know. I tell people this all the time:

In school you are taught to read. In school you are taught that what you read is fact and you must learn it. With the internet this is not the case. You have absolutely NO idea who the guy is typing at his keyboard. You don't know his background, his knowledge, what he has accomplished or what his intentions are. There are guys out there typing just to type and seem knowledgable. It's rediculous. There are guys claiming to be experts that I wouldn't let mop our shop floor. It's rediculous. Many guys have good intentions on here but regardless have no idea what they are talking about....but just keep talking.

I'm a vendor and I am here to sell parts, that is my main goal. I do know that we won't sell a part that doesn't work, won't sell a part a customer doesn't need, talk customers OUT of buying parts they don't need, pride ourselves on our honesty. I guarantee you if it has something to do with an 4g63 powered vehicle we have probably done it, broke it, rebuilt it, ruined it, caught it on fire, crashed it, drove it, slid it, dyno'd it, tried it three times and just plain thrashed on it.

The "Truth Squad", I can handle the truth, what is it?

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

Miami DSM

This is great it truly is, but you are missing one vital piece of information. The XEDE and ECUTEC and any type of piggy back offer one thing, one map, and for WOT. That is by far the easiest to tune for, so going WOT the car is tuned for one map. You can also add fuel at idle so the car will idle with cams, but that has been giving me issues and a very rich low end which hurts performance for me.



The AEM EMS wipes the slate clean and you can tune EVERY ASPECT for you car, especially daily driving, part throttle in which you can run a lean fuel curve RIGHT before spool up and get a superior throttle response not to mention the maf being removed, not that it would add or remove WHP removing the Maf, but the maf gets effected by noises and vibration and yes my car stalls sometimes when there is a loud V8 next to me. The issue is of course tuning, and the fact that I have 4 competent tuners by me it is really a blessing I have the ability to tune.



Finally let us not forget the wideband capabilities, even though you can run it off the XEDE for data logging, you can run it entirely off of the wideband for the EMS for optimal tuning and safety.



Finally, the AEM EMS can store multiple maps, which is great for you Race Gas of ALKY users. Also the incorporation of alky is simple with the AEM EMS, with flashes or piggy backs you better keep an eye on your system but it isn’t terrible, just a nice feature with the EMS.







For drag racing, you can kick *** with a SAFC, but for the entire package, especially part throttle, EMS kicks *** as long as your tuner does too.

shiv@vishnu

iTrader: (20)

huh?

gofaster87

iTrader: (7)

I agree with David on this one. I have a 2.4L evo with 280s, 1200cc injectors and a turbo that is much larger than a 35r and it feels no different driving it around than any other evo(other than lag). Driveability is not a prroblem. If youre using a tuner that doesnt have a good supply of maps or a good understanding of tuning variables then there is a problem. The truth squad was inspired by a bunch of egotistical evo owners that want the answers to fit their agenda. Too many cliques on this board, too much bragging that their shiat dont stink and finally too many know it alls.

Miami DSM

Hey Keith, how do you know what 93 + Meth equals? I would immagine a lil more then 105 becuase we have a Guy on this site that runs a 35R on the stock bottom end and he makes 550WHP on a 03 Evo at 28PSI, that is pretty good.

Miami DSM

What do you mean HUH? What does a flash have or a piggy back have over a full stand alone?

I know you sell the XEDE and I know you are the ONLY one who sells it. I like the product and know it works, I was kinda generalizing flash's and piggy backs, I know the XEDE is superior to a flash but I would immagine offers little more then an ECUTEC flash but I still believe that the AEM EMS offers a better platform then any piggy back unit as long as the tuner is competant.


How many maps can the XEDE store? Can it be modified to run off the wideband? Wouldn't removing the maf offer better throttle response? Can you modifiy part throttle with the XEDE? What does it offer over something like a U-TEC.


Anything using the MAF is ok but the MAF is VERY finicky and can be effected by many outside interferences and is probably why the stock intake is so good for our cars.

David Buschur

iTrader: (53)

BTW, I did a search for Truth Squad and found my answers. Wow is about all I have to say. I will take my comments to that topic. Sorry to bring it up here.

BTW, the AEM EMS does NOT store multiple maps. See...where's the damn truth squad at?!

The multiple maps are stored in your laptop and then loaded into the EMS.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

VTECH8TR

iTrader: (70)

WHAT!!!! How can the AEM store multiple maps. It can only store one map at a time, you better bring your laptop with you or you are SOL.

shiv@vishnu

iTrader: (20)

A few thousand more man-hours of development and testing, for starters. The nice thing about interceptor devices and reflashes is that, when designed and mapped correctly, they retain all the good stuff that comes with stock ECUs and that team of clever engineers that designed it either from scratch with nearly unlimited resources or as an evolution of earlier sucessfull ECU designs. Dual timing maps. Dual fuel maps. Active octane indicator. Sensor redundancies. Failsafe modes. OBD diagnostics. All good stuff.

I know you truly believe that but what is your reasoning? How is an AEM EMS better than an XEDE. Because it can run a crummy MAP sensor? Is that a good thing?

2 distinct calibration files. That's twice as many as the AEM And a total of 12 user-definable 3D tables. Last time I checked, the only thing definable about the AEM's tables are RPM and Load breakpoints.

If you wanted to do something that silly, yes.

\

No. In fact, a MAP sensor is a less accurate means of load/airflow indication. Afterall, why estimate airflow (by monitoring MAP and intake temp), when you can actually read it.

Of course. All the ables are 3D with user-definable load and RPM points. You use TPS, MAF or even MAP for load for any individual table.

I'm not too familiar with the UTEC, to be honest.

Yes, a sensor needs to read properly if it's to be relied on. I don't find needing to have an intelligent and effective airbox design to be a downside.

-Shiv