View Poll Results: Which do you like?
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Poll: FMIC - Front Mount Intercooler
Jan 1, 2006, 01:49 PM
#152
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Wow, it looks like I missed all the excitement here while I was on vacation this past week. I rarely post on this forum, but I can contribute to this thread. I had a Buschur IC on my car for about a year and a half. The car ran fine and I was happy. Then, after talking to Rob (the Nisei rep) and Kevin (the one who designed the nisei core), I had been convinced to at least try the Nisei core. Here's the data I got from the EMS. (If you don't have the EMS logging software go download it from www.aempower.com because then you can see the air temps and exactly what is going on in gears 2-4 in the two logs I have posted.)
A quick breakdown...the car has a GT3076R and a Buschur upper IC pipe. The temp sensor is at the bottom of the IC pipe (a few inches away from the IC outlet). I did a log on each core from gears 2-4 ). The logs were done on different days with different temperatures. On the day I logged the Buschur IC the air temp was 9 degrees warmer.
Buschur IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 44.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6918 RPM - 91.40F
Nisei IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 35.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6934 RPM - 41.0F
So at the top of forth gear, the air going into the intake manifold was 50.4 degrees cooler with the Nisei core compared to the Buschur core. And not only does the Nisei cool better (much better), it is much more consistent. For example, if you look at the log, the air temp line with the Nisei is almost completely flat. In fact, at the top of fourth gear, the air temp had only gone up by 13.17%. The Buschur core's graph on the other hand, looks more like the beginning of a roller coaster. That is, the only thing that's consistent is that the temps keep getting hotter and hotter very quickly. At the top of fourth gear with the Buschur core, the air which the intake manifold sees had increased 51.20% over the ambient air. As expected though, the Buschur core had less of a pressure drop because when I put the Nisei core on the car, I needed to turn the boost about 1 psi to get back to 25 psi. I know this test is not perfect because the ambient air temps were 9 degrees off, but come on...50+ degrees difference? It's not hard to tell which is the better core.
A quick breakdown...the car has a GT3076R and a Buschur upper IC pipe. The temp sensor is at the bottom of the IC pipe (a few inches away from the IC outlet). I did a log on each core from gears 2-4 ). The logs were done on different days with different temperatures. On the day I logged the Buschur IC the air temp was 9 degrees warmer.
Buschur IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 44.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6918 RPM - 91.40F
Nisei IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 35.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6934 RPM - 41.0F
So at the top of forth gear, the air going into the intake manifold was 50.4 degrees cooler with the Nisei core compared to the Buschur core. And not only does the Nisei cool better (much better), it is much more consistent. For example, if you look at the log, the air temp line with the Nisei is almost completely flat. In fact, at the top of fourth gear, the air temp had only gone up by 13.17%. The Buschur core's graph on the other hand, looks more like the beginning of a roller coaster. That is, the only thing that's consistent is that the temps keep getting hotter and hotter very quickly. At the top of fourth gear with the Buschur core, the air which the intake manifold sees had increased 51.20% over the ambient air. As expected though, the Buschur core had less of a pressure drop because when I put the Nisei core on the car, I needed to turn the boost about 1 psi to get back to 25 psi. I know this test is not perfect because the ambient air temps were 9 degrees off, but come on...50+ degrees difference? It's not hard to tell which is the better core.
Last edited by bbar; Jan 2, 2006 at 04:26 PM.
Jan 1, 2006, 01:50 PM
#153
Originally Posted by Noize
I had an AMS for over a year on my TME turbo, cams, gears, engine mgmt, etc. I made no whp with it. I went back to the stock IC. It fits much better, makes the exact same power on the dyno, and spools 300rpm faster.
Stock or bust if you have a 16G!
Stock or bust if you have a 16G!
Jan 1, 2006, 01:58 PM
#154
Originally Posted by bbar
Wow, it looks like I missed all the excitement here while I was on vacation this past week. I rarely post on this forum, but I can contribute to this thread. I had a Buschur IC on my car for about a year and a half. The car ran fine and I was happy. Then, after talking to Rob (the Nisei rep) and Kevin (the one who designed the nisei core), I had been convinced to at least try the Nisei core. Here's the data I got from the EMS. (If you don't have the EMS logging software go download it from www.aempower.com because then you can see the air temps and exactly what is going on in gears 2-4 in the two logs I have posted.)
A quick breakdown...the car has a GT3076R and a Buschur upper IC pipe. The temp sensor is at the bottom of the IC pipe (a few inches away from the IC outlet). I did a log on each core from gears 2-4 ). The logs were done on different days with different temperatures. On the day I logged the Buschur IC the air temp was 9 degrees warmer.
Buschur IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 44.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6918 RPM - 91.40F
Nisei IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 35.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6934 RPM - 41.0F
So at the top of forth gear, the air going into the intake manifold was 50.4 degrees cooler with the Nisei core compared to the Buschur core. And not only does the Nisei cool better (much better), it is much more consistent. For example, if you look at the log, the air temp line with the Nisei is almost completely flat. In fact, at the top of fourth gear, the air temp had only gone up by 13.17%. The Buschur core's graph on the other hand, looks more like the beginning of a roller coaster. That is, the only thing that's consistent is that the temps keep getting hotter and hotter very quickly. At the top of fourth gear with the Buschur core, the air which the intake manifold sees had increased 51.20% over the ambient air. As expected though, the Buschur core had less of a pressure drop because when I put the Nisei core on the car, I needed to turn the boost about 1 psi to get back to 25 psi. I know this test is not perfect because the ambient air temps were 9 degrees off, but come on...50+ degrees difference? It's not hard to tell which is the better core.
A quick breakdown...the car has a GT3076R and a Buschur upper IC pipe. The temp sensor is at the bottom of the IC pipe (a few inches away from the IC outlet). I did a log on each core from gears 2-4 ). The logs were done on different days with different temperatures. On the day I logged the Buschur IC the air temp was 9 degrees warmer.
Buschur IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 44.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6918 RPM - 91.40F
Nisei IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 35.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6934 RPM - 41.0F
So at the top of forth gear, the air going into the intake manifold was 50.4 degrees cooler with the Nisei core compared to the Buschur core. And not only does the Nisei cool better (much better), it is much more consistent. For example, if you look at the log, the air temp line with the Nisei is almost completely flat. In fact, at the top of fourth gear, the air temp had only gone up by 13.17%. The Buschur core's graph on the other hand, looks more like the beginning of a roller coaster. That is, the only thing that's consistent is that the temps keep getting hotter and hotter very quickly. At the top of fourth gear with the Buschur core, the air which the intake manifold sees had increased 51.20% over the ambient air. As expected though, the Buschur core had less of a pressure drop because when I put the Nisei core on the car, I needed to turn the boost about 1 psi to get back to 25 psi. I know this test is not perfect because the ambient air temps were 9 degrees off, but come on...50+ degrees difference? It's not hard to tell which is the better core.
Jan 1, 2006, 02:45 PM
#155
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Thanks Tom. That's actually a really good question and I'm glad you said something. I did all the pulls on the 73 fwy just south of MacArthur late at night. The baseline temps aren't the ambient temps. I don't have a sensor on my car to measure ambient air temp, so the baseline temps are a lot cooler than the ambient air temp because of how fast the air moves across the temp sensor in the upper IC pipe. The actual air temperature was somewhere between 45-55F on both days. So even though I didn't have a way to correctly mesaure ambient, my temp sensor was used as marker for comparision purposes. Kinda like using the same dyno all the time...no matter how high or low it reads, you know if your car has improved or not because it's relative to that dyno.
Jan 1, 2006, 03:51 PM
#156
Originally Posted by bbar
Thanks Tom. That's actually a really good question and I'm glad you said something. I did all the pulls on the 73 fwy just south of MacArthur late at night. The baseline temps aren't the ambient temps. I don't have a sensor on my car to measure ambient air temp, so the baseline temps are a lot cooler than the ambient air temp because of how fast the air moves across the temp sensor in the upper IC pipe. The actual air temperature was somewhere between 45-55F on both days. So even though I didn't have a way to correctly mesaure ambient, my temp sensor was used as marker for comparision purposes. Kinda like using the same dyno all the time...no matter how high or low it reads, you know if your car has improved or not because it's relative to that dyno.
Thanks, that does answer my question. When I first discovered this thread I thought of your 500whp monster as the perfect car to do some of our own tests. I don't have the sensors and datalogging capability on my car like you do on yours. But let's just see what DB comes up with next week.
One thing that many people don't seem concerned with on this particular thread is the design and durability of the intercoolers. Both the Buschur and the Nisei ICs have issues here:
David Buschur just admitted above that his cores' integrated lower intercooler pipe design is flawed and is only very recently(two years after its introduction) being redesigned so the coupler doesn't fail. Am I the only one who read this and saw a huge red flag go up?? It seems like Buschurs first attempts at new Evo products often come up short, only to be fixed by later redesigns.
The Nisei, which I have, is big and heavy. It also hangs lower than many aftermarket ICs. The inside bottom rests right up against the lower tow hook. Mine has developed small dents and fin damage on that spot and I keep thinking I'd better put some sort of padding to protect it there. I've only had it on the car for two thousand miles, will it eventually rub a hole there? If I go to a track day and spin off the track at 90mph, will the rough bouncing seriously damage it at that tow hook point? Finally, my car is currently lowered only about an inch from stock. I also don't have my undertray on as I am keeping a close eye on my new motor for any signs of leaks, etc. I already have a couple of small scratches on the bottom of my Nisei from bottoming out. Kinda makes me nervous. With all that said, there are several things about the Nisei IC that are simply outstanding. So, if I address the tow hook issue and get a protective undertray on there, I'll be completely satisfied. But until then, my vote goes with the AMS core.
I had the AMS standard IC before the Nisei and it required a lot less trimming of the undertray, was significantly lighter, sat higher from the ground, and did not come close to rubbing anywhere. I also disagree with my friend Noize about it not making power. I picked up power with mine, but I cannot say with any certainty how much.
I hope folks see that I just pissed off pretty much everybody and have nothing to gain by this post. But that is how I see it and I'm happy to express my feelings on this issue.
Last edited by Smogrunner; Jan 1, 2006 at 04:34 PM.
Jan 1, 2006, 04:32 PM
#157
atlvalet,
I don't even think we need to agree to disagree. I agree with you comletely actually. I do need to find a better way to come across when I criticize something. We agree. If you knew me 15 years ago you'd know that I have atleast made improvements in that time
fourdoor,
You are 100% absolutely correct. If the testing proves that our intercooler core is inferior I will sure as hell find a way to buy the core they are using and improve our parts. I have changed our products over the years more than probably all other companies like ours combined. I am not loyal to anything except for what works the best. Thanks for the explanation on the wind chill. We were talking about it last night and had the same conclusion, wind chill plays no effect on the overall tempurature reading. Thanks.
Str8ryda,
Thanks for laying all that out. Your connection must be better than mine as I can't make out much detail from the link I posted. Onto what you wrote.
You can easily see from what you posted what my problem is. Do you see the ambient temps on our intercooler starting at 64.4 degrees and ending at 62 degrees? Don't you find it on that in a pull from 1st gear to 5th gear the ambient temps dropped 2.4 degrees? Actually I didn't even notice that before. Tells me something about the placement of the probe on our test.
Now look at their ambient air temps. Kind of odd they didn't vary at all, 60.8 through 5 gears. Hmmm.....
Now look at our first gear. We started with ambient air temps at 64.4 degrees. By the end of first gear the outlet temps were 67.1 degrees. Honestly that isn't that much of an increase and I have no problem with those numbers. 2.7 degree increase.
Now look at the Nisei first gear. Here is the problem I had with the test. It is quite easy to see the problem. They have a starting ambient air temp of 60.8 degrees. The outlet temps at the end of 1st gear were 53.8 degrees. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE. You cannot cool the air in an air-to-air intercooler below AMBIENT air temps. It is impossible. The test is flawed, plain and simple.
So onto my math. Take that -7 degrees they came up with and add it back to their total gain in temps which was 17.1 degrees, this will give their intercooler a total gain of 24.1 degrees, just using the data they gave us. Since something is obviously wrong with the way the test was done this is the best I can do to get the numbers closer.
Pressure drop. We advertise our intercoolers, current cores we use, to have less than 1 psi of pressure drop. As you can see we speak the truth. Putting their pressure drop into perspective to ours, they have 2.3 times the amount of pressure drop we do.
The pressure drop in an intercooler is a HUGE killer of horsepower. As I said earlier, I'll take the tempurature difference over the pressure drop. Add to this that a larger core will generally have less pressure drop than a smaller and I'd say our much smaller intercooler they tested against did pretty well
The test just needs performed again fairly.
EVO8LTW,
The BR Race FMIC is the best performing intercooler we sell. The Standard and Deluxe kits we sell use the same core. The Standard is a direct replacement for stock, no i/c pipes included. The Deluxe has our very short routed i/c pipes for the lower included.
The Race FMIC is much heavier than the other two intercoolers we sell. The prices are $650, $750 and $850. The Deluxe is on sale now for $675 shipped.
The Standard FMIC is the only one that goes right back in with no cutting of the undertray. The Race FMIC might squeeze back in without cutting the undertray but I will need to double check it to be sure.
We continue to offer all three as different people want different things for different reasons. The larger variety of parts we can offer, that work, the easier it is to meet everyone's needs. The end tank design is the same on Std/Deluxe to it's an easy build for us. No extra parts or such required.
Many guys have some other aftermarket lower i/c pipes so it is easier/cheaper to go with the Standard core.
Creamo3,
The Ohio weather SUCKS, I hate winter. I don't drive any of my cars in winter here. The roads are covered in salt. I will do the testing on the dyno, no road testing. The fans matter very little in my opinion. As long as both are tested with the same fans and the other parameters being the same.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I don't even think we need to agree to disagree. I agree with you comletely actually. I do need to find a better way to come across when I criticize something. We agree. If you knew me 15 years ago you'd know that I have atleast made improvements in that time
fourdoor,
You are 100% absolutely correct. If the testing proves that our intercooler core is inferior I will sure as hell find a way to buy the core they are using and improve our parts. I have changed our products over the years more than probably all other companies like ours combined. I am not loyal to anything except for what works the best. Thanks for the explanation on the wind chill. We were talking about it last night and had the same conclusion, wind chill plays no effect on the overall tempurature reading. Thanks.
Str8ryda,
Thanks for laying all that out. Your connection must be better than mine as I can't make out much detail from the link I posted. Onto what you wrote.
You can easily see from what you posted what my problem is. Do you see the ambient temps on our intercooler starting at 64.4 degrees and ending at 62 degrees? Don't you find it on that in a pull from 1st gear to 5th gear the ambient temps dropped 2.4 degrees? Actually I didn't even notice that before. Tells me something about the placement of the probe on our test.
Now look at their ambient air temps. Kind of odd they didn't vary at all, 60.8 through 5 gears. Hmmm.....
Now look at our first gear. We started with ambient air temps at 64.4 degrees. By the end of first gear the outlet temps were 67.1 degrees. Honestly that isn't that much of an increase and I have no problem with those numbers. 2.7 degree increase.
Now look at the Nisei first gear. Here is the problem I had with the test. It is quite easy to see the problem. They have a starting ambient air temp of 60.8 degrees. The outlet temps at the end of 1st gear were 53.8 degrees. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE. You cannot cool the air in an air-to-air intercooler below AMBIENT air temps. It is impossible. The test is flawed, plain and simple.
So onto my math. Take that -7 degrees they came up with and add it back to their total gain in temps which was 17.1 degrees, this will give their intercooler a total gain of 24.1 degrees, just using the data they gave us. Since something is obviously wrong with the way the test was done this is the best I can do to get the numbers closer.
Pressure drop. We advertise our intercoolers, current cores we use, to have less than 1 psi of pressure drop. As you can see we speak the truth. Putting their pressure drop into perspective to ours, they have 2.3 times the amount of pressure drop we do.
The pressure drop in an intercooler is a HUGE killer of horsepower. As I said earlier, I'll take the tempurature difference over the pressure drop. Add to this that a larger core will generally have less pressure drop than a smaller and I'd say our much smaller intercooler they tested against did pretty well
The test just needs performed again fairly.
EVO8LTW,
The BR Race FMIC is the best performing intercooler we sell. The Standard and Deluxe kits we sell use the same core. The Standard is a direct replacement for stock, no i/c pipes included. The Deluxe has our very short routed i/c pipes for the lower included.
The Race FMIC is much heavier than the other two intercoolers we sell. The prices are $650, $750 and $850. The Deluxe is on sale now for $675 shipped.
The Standard FMIC is the only one that goes right back in with no cutting of the undertray. The Race FMIC might squeeze back in without cutting the undertray but I will need to double check it to be sure.
We continue to offer all three as different people want different things for different reasons. The larger variety of parts we can offer, that work, the easier it is to meet everyone's needs. The end tank design is the same on Std/Deluxe to it's an easy build for us. No extra parts or such required.
Many guys have some other aftermarket lower i/c pipes so it is easier/cheaper to go with the Standard core.
Creamo3,
The Ohio weather SUCKS, I hate winter. I don't drive any of my cars in winter here. The roads are covered in salt. I will do the testing on the dyno, no road testing. The fans matter very little in my opinion. As long as both are tested with the same fans and the other parameters being the same.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Jan 1, 2006, 04:44 PM
#158
smogrunner,
The difference between myself and just about any other vendor is that I do post when we change something and I will admit if we have a problem. Then I will fix it, if you'd like to hold that against me....go ahead.
The Deluxe FMIC is one of three intercoolers we build. The Deluxe has actually been redesigned no less than 3 times in 3 years. Small changes. We were going to discontinue the design because of the weak motor mounts in the EVO's and the lower coupling problems. Instead I had the idea to make that lower section two pieces. Why I didn't think of it before I have no idea. This was a very very simple fix that cost us nothing to change on our end.
Also, with the new engine mounts we finally have the lower i/c pipe issues will be a thing of the past regardless of couplings or any thing else. If the EVO engine didn't bounce around like a basketball in the engine bay there would never have been an issue.
BBar,
I am assuming you were using either our Standard or Deluxe FMIC kit when you did the test. Your testing, like Nisei's were against our smaller intercoolers, just pointing that out.
Your tempuratures are really high, even compared to what Nisei came up with in their own testing. I am wondering if maybe you had a boost leak that got fixed when you swapped out intercoolers, this would cause the air temps to raise higher than normal. Thanks for posting the information.
Remember this though, our Standard and Deluxe kits, even being smaller, pick up a consistent 15 whp when we swap them with the stock FMIC that comes on the car.
That's all. Testing is coming.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
The difference between myself and just about any other vendor is that I do post when we change something and I will admit if we have a problem. Then I will fix it, if you'd like to hold that against me....go ahead.
The Deluxe FMIC is one of three intercoolers we build. The Deluxe has actually been redesigned no less than 3 times in 3 years. Small changes. We were going to discontinue the design because of the weak motor mounts in the EVO's and the lower coupling problems. Instead I had the idea to make that lower section two pieces. Why I didn't think of it before I have no idea. This was a very very simple fix that cost us nothing to change on our end.
Also, with the new engine mounts we finally have the lower i/c pipe issues will be a thing of the past regardless of couplings or any thing else. If the EVO engine didn't bounce around like a basketball in the engine bay there would never have been an issue.
BBar,
I am assuming you were using either our Standard or Deluxe FMIC kit when you did the test. Your testing, like Nisei's were against our smaller intercoolers, just pointing that out.
Your tempuratures are really high, even compared to what Nisei came up with in their own testing. I am wondering if maybe you had a boost leak that got fixed when you swapped out intercoolers, this would cause the air temps to raise higher than normal. Thanks for posting the information.
Remember this though, our Standard and Deluxe kits, even being smaller, pick up a consistent 15 whp when we swap them with the stock FMIC that comes on the car.
That's all. Testing is coming.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Jan 1, 2006, 05:21 PM
#159
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I sold NISSEI and boght BR RACE FMIC.
What can i say....
1)BR FMIC is MUCH BIGGER that NISSEI!!!!!!
2)BR inlet 2.5/outlet -3
vs NISSEI inlet 2/outlet -2 
3)I feel difference in acceleration(i dont know how much HP i gained....But i`m sure much more!!!)
David compare these 2 and show them the REAL difference!
What can i say....
1)BR FMIC is MUCH BIGGER that NISSEI!!!!!!
2)BR inlet 2.5/outlet -3
vs NISSEI inlet 2/outlet -2 3)I feel difference in acceleration(i dont know how much HP i gained....But i`m sure much more!!!)
David compare these 2 and show them the REAL difference!
Jan 1, 2006, 10:31 PM
#160
Originally Posted by Noize
I had an AMS for over a year on my TME turbo, cams, gears, engine mgmt, etc. I made no whp with it. I went back to the stock IC. It fits much better, makes the exact same power on the dyno, and spools 300rpm faster.
Stock or bust if you have a 16G!
Stock or bust if you have a 16G!
Jan 1, 2006, 10:54 PM
#161
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Originally Posted by EVO8LTW
Yes (except the part about the deluxe kit including the upper pipe and bov), but Buschur continues to sell a deluxe model (newly revised) and a race model while saying that the race is suitable for the stock turbo. I guess I don't see the point of the deluxe any more, except for economy, ease of installation (no need to trim the fascia) and less weight on the nose (I read that the race is ~7 lbs. heavier than the deluxe, which is about 10 lbs. heavier than the stocker).
I bought it all together. Thanks for clearing that up
Jan 1, 2006, 11:38 PM
#162
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Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Str8ryda,
Thanks for laying all that out. Your connection must be better than mine as I can't make out much detail from the link I posted. Onto what you wrote.
You can easily see from what you posted what my problem is. Do you see the ambient temps on our intercooler starting at 64.4 degrees and ending at 62 degrees? Don't you find it on that in a pull from 1st gear to 5th gear the ambient temps dropped 2.4 degrees? Actually I didn't even notice that before. Tells me something about the placement of the probe on our test.
Thanks for laying all that out. Your connection must be better than mine as I can't make out much detail from the link I posted. Onto what you wrote.
You can easily see from what you posted what my problem is. Do you see the ambient temps on our intercooler starting at 64.4 degrees and ending at 62 degrees? Don't you find it on that in a pull from 1st gear to 5th gear the ambient temps dropped 2.4 degrees? Actually I didn't even notice that before. Tells me something about the placement of the probe on our test.
I'm not sure I follow you here. The temperatures you are referencing to are the ambient temps. So, are you saying that the "ambient" sensor was placed somewhere else on your test? But, the "ambient" temps recorded on your test were 3.6F higher. Then by the end of the run (5th gear) your recorded ambient temps dropped 1.8F. Bringing your recorded "ambient" temp to 62.6F. If the placement of the sensor was different, are you saying that your "ambient" should have been lower?
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Now look at their ambient air temps. Kind of odd they didn't vary at all, 60.8 through 5 gears. Hmmm.....
Now look at our first gear. We started with ambient air temps at 64.4 degrees. By the end of first gear the outlet temps were 67.1 degrees. Honestly that isn't that much of an increase and I have no problem with those numbers. 2.7 degree increase.
Now look at the Nisei first gear. Here is the problem I had with the test. It is quite easy to see the problem. They have a starting ambient air temp of 60.8 degrees. The outlet temps at the end of 1st gear were 53.8 degrees. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE. You cannot cool the air in an air-to-air intercooler below AMBIENT air temps. It is impossible. The test is flawed, plain and simple.
Now look at our first gear. We started with ambient air temps at 64.4 degrees. By the end of first gear the outlet temps were 67.1 degrees. Honestly that isn't that much of an increase and I have no problem with those numbers. 2.7 degree increase.
Now look at the Nisei first gear. Here is the problem I had with the test. It is quite easy to see the problem. They have a starting ambient air temp of 60.8 degrees. The outlet temps at the end of 1st gear were 53.8 degrees. THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE. You cannot cool the air in an air-to-air intercooler below AMBIENT air temps. It is impossible. The test is flawed, plain and simple.
Just thought of a question though. If, the above (MY statement NOT David's) were to be the case, why would that matter? Once the "inlet air temps" reached 177.8F at 2568 RPM on the Deluxe, and 181.4F at 2796 RPM on the Nisei. For the starting points of the logs. Wouldn't that offset any tampering done to the end tanks? Another thing just popped into my head as well.
Is it possible since the Deluxe I/C has the "inlet pipe" welded to the inlet end tank which is welded to the FMIC & the "inlet pipe" is closer to the turbocharger. It could be "pre-heating" or "radiating heat" to the attached end tank?
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
So onto my math. Take that -7 degrees they came up with and add it back to their total gain in temps which was 17.1 degrees, this will give their intercooler a total gain of 24.1 degrees, just using the data they gave us. Since something is obviously wrong with the way the test was done this is the best I can do to get the numbers closer.
Nisei with an additional +7.3F added to every gear would look like this :
1st 0.0F
2nd +0.7F
3rd +6.1F
4th +19.1F
5th +23.5F
Deluxe as test indicates is :
1st +2.5F
2nd +6.6F
3rd +18.9F
4th +33F
5th +38.1F
End result the Deluxe +14.6F over the Nisei.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Pressure drop. We advertise our intercoolers, current cores we use, to have less than 1 psi of pressure drop. As you can see we speak the truth. Putting their pressure drop into perspective to ours, they have 2.3 times the amount of pressure drop we do.
The pressure drop in an intercooler is a HUGE killer of horsepower. As I said earlier, I'll take the tempurature difference over the pressure drop. Add to this that a larger core will generally have less pressure drop than a smaller and I'd say our much smaller intercooler they tested against did pretty well
The test just needs performed again fairly.
The pressure drop in an intercooler is a HUGE killer of horsepower. As I said earlier, I'll take the tempurature difference over the pressure drop. Add to this that a larger core will generally have less pressure drop than a smaller and I'd say our much smaller intercooler they tested against did pretty well
The test just needs performed again fairly.
Originally Posted by myevostore.com
Quick FYI, Nisei Engineering is well aware of the different models (variations) of the Deluxe I/C's. The one tested on the site is one of the Original models. Nisei Engineering is actually in the process of procuring the other model to test against. The newer model is COMPLETELY different in configuration/design. I'm sure the Evo community will be shocked of the results when made public.
Originally Posted by myevostore.com
Regarding the statement about Davids cores having "almost NO pressure drop" I will give David opportunity to revise his statement regarding the Deluxe I/C. David, you and I both know the original core is COMPLETELY different in design / fin configuration / tube count, tube size. The fin configuration is much more aggressive in the more recent model. The newer core will register a pressure drop greater than the Nisei model tested.
Will they all have the same pressure drop as the one tested? Also, if this test is not accurate isn't it possible the pressure readings are faulty? If the Motec was not accurate then all the data should be thrown out?
Last edited by Str8Ryda; Jan 2, 2006 at 12:09 AM.
Jan 1, 2006, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bbar
Buschur IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 44.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6918 RPM - 91.40F
Nisei IC
baseline temp reading in second gear: 35.6F
air temp at top of fourth gear: 6934 RPM - 41.0F
This is very interesting. I was wondering if you might be able to "print screen" and post the actual graphs of the above runs. I don't want to download the software to something I'm not going to use.
What I want to do is just check the characteristics of your chart vs what Nisei has posted. More so I'm interested to know if the temperatures of both cores climb in temperature in a similar manner. It would be kind of a overlay comparison.
Much appreciated in advance!
Jan 2, 2006, 01:35 AM
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hey all, Happy new year!
After much searching and reading of hundreds of posts I have a few questions I hope someone will be able to answer.
Firstly I am planning on doing mild mods to my evo 8. here is the plan
Initailly
WORKS O2 housing, Works 3" TBE with resonated Test pipe.
Works DV
EcuTek
drop in filter
upper and lower intercooler pipes
Upgraded Intercooler.
Maybe later
cams
10.5 hot side
Now the Q's
1. firstly I drive a right hand drive EVO 8, 5 speed. don't know if it makes any diference to the LHD as far as parts and fitment goes
2. I all the reading I noticed that there is a very healthy rivalry between Buschur and Nisei. Now both their coolers look good, and yes I understand that both have good and bad points, it comes down to personal choice. but my question is:
is there no way to have the inlet and outlet (esp. in) placed in a better position to give more even flow through the cooler. it seems (and I may be horribly wrong) that the bottom of the cooler will be working a lot harder than the top half? I noticed that the AMS and ARC coolers have good end tanks in this respect.
3. I discovered that the nisei and the buschur "delux" need trimming of the under tray to get them to fit. does any one have pics of this to help illustrate it. myevostore.com said they where designing a new undertray to fit these coolers? any more news on that?
4. What are the deference between the buschur "delux" and "Std" besides size?
5. I really like to the look of the ARC and price aside, how does it compare to the Buschur / Nisei? seems to have really nice flowing end ttanks and the core seems well made too.
6. With all these kits (Buschur, ARC, Nisei, AMS) upper i/c piping does it all work with the std airbox?
Thanks
Mike
After much searching and reading of hundreds of posts I have a few questions I hope someone will be able to answer.
Firstly I am planning on doing mild mods to my evo 8. here is the plan
Initailly
WORKS O2 housing, Works 3" TBE with resonated Test pipe.
Works DV
EcuTek
drop in filter
upper and lower intercooler pipes
Upgraded Intercooler.
Maybe later
cams
10.5 hot side
Now the Q's
1. firstly I drive a right hand drive EVO 8, 5 speed. don't know if it makes any diference to the LHD as far as parts and fitment goes
2. I all the reading I noticed that there is a very healthy rivalry between Buschur and Nisei. Now both their coolers look good, and yes I understand that both have good and bad points, it comes down to personal choice. but my question is:
is there no way to have the inlet and outlet (esp. in) placed in a better position to give more even flow through the cooler. it seems (and I may be horribly wrong) that the bottom of the cooler will be working a lot harder than the top half? I noticed that the AMS and ARC coolers have good end tanks in this respect.
3. I discovered that the nisei and the buschur "delux" need trimming of the under tray to get them to fit. does any one have pics of this to help illustrate it. myevostore.com said they where designing a new undertray to fit these coolers? any more news on that?
4. What are the deference between the buschur "delux" and "Std" besides size?
5. I really like to the look of the ARC and price aside, how does it compare to the Buschur / Nisei? seems to have really nice flowing end ttanks and the core seems well made too.
6. With all these kits (Buschur, ARC, Nisei, AMS) upper i/c piping does it all work with the std airbox?
Thanks
Mike
