Inn-Tune

iTrader: (33)

Bolsen here's what I said in the PM about a parallel setup:
"When you run twin parallel pumps in tank you can run 1 and then kick the second on when necessary, but people who have done flow testing said this method flowed less than running 2 pumps in series. I'm guessing this is because the pumps running in parallel were pulsing at the same time, so there was a lot of collision and reversion wherever the lines T'd together.

That said lots of Supra guys do this without problems and we've run the parallel setup on some cars and it got the job done. You would run two -6 lines into a -8 line."

You can also get away with the stock return line using this setup since you're only pushing both pumps when you'll be using lots of fuel anyways.


The AMS kit that was just posted uses the pumps in series which seems to create greater flow as I mentioned. You'd be using a Walbro 255 lph inline pump plus a standard in tank drop in pump.

Inn-Tune

iTrader: (33)

Their kit says it uses -8 lines, and I'm guessing they're modding the assembly so it doesn't neck down through stock the stock nipple.

I'd run -8 out of the in tank pump and install a fitting in the top of the assembly so you can disconnect the line there if need be. Then run -8 to the inline pump and -8 from the inline pump to the rail.

-Mike

4ringturncoat

iTrader: (21)

I don't know, but this is one of the kits I have been looking at. When you add up all the parts it seems to be pretty fairly priced. From what I could gather this is the exact same kit they use on the 850 whp car from FLA. I would think if Martin feels it will support that then we should be pretty safe.

If I can piece one together so save my beer fund I am all for doing it, I will take the pump out this weekend and see about getting a -8 size for the feed. Not to mention I really feel like a few SS line blood draws soon

bolsen

iTrader: (2)

Well, like I said, I'm going to be working on this next week when the car goes back down to the fabricator.

I don't doubt for a minute that AMS knows what they are doing. Being that I already have a fuel rail, fpr, and in tank pump, I don't want to purchase AMS's kit. When I called to inquire about purchasing the rest of it, they told me they wouldn't part it out. When I asked about the modifications they'd made to the sending unit, they told me that they couldn't give me any info about it. So, I figure I'll make it myself and post a writeup for it on my website so others out there can make it themselves for less $$. Or maybe I'll even make my own kit and sell it.

It is interesting that AMS hasn't posted in this thread yet, considering they are the only one selling a fuel "kit" for our cars.

4ringturncoat

iTrader: (21)

So much for getting much help on it from them. I will pull mine out today and see what can be done. I wonder how they are running the second pump? They must be running a second electric supply b/c I doubt the factory wiring will support the higher amperage of 2 pumps. It would be nice to keep the crash, roll-over shut off.

bolsen

iTrader: (2)

Looks like I'll be putting this together sooner than expected I'll keep yall posted!

bolsen

iTrader: (2)

Dropped the car off tonight. It'll be another week or two, but I'll update as I can

feldguy

iTrader: (4)

Phenominal. Keep it up.

Also, I checked out the exhaust comparison they had in the new Modified Magazine. Pretty comprehensive even though it left out the #1 power producer, or close to it (the BR 3" TB).

Just the same, I was very interested to learn that the Denso 310 is actually unecessary.

What thoughts do you have on the AMS 1200hp fuel system?

One other thing...Injectors....if you've any ideas on those, I can offer my opinions up as well, but you seem to have this thing down to a science when it comes to explaining, as I seem to just ramble.

Thanks!

bolsen

iTrader: (2)

I would have liked to go with the AMS setup, but as I stated above, they were not interested in selling it to me

As for injectimicators, I'm a fan of bigger injectors lower duty cycle. It all depends on how much power you're trying to get.

C6C6CH3vo

iTrader: (9)

The pump is operating in the high flow mode at low to mid throttle instead of only WOT like it used to. This is confirmed by listening with seat out and panel off like I did for a check after I installed it 1 year ago. My ears aren't lying it's high flow, not to mention the 13vdc read with jumpers on the pump connecter.

What is going on? The car has only operated in "high" at WOT (and for 1 sec upon eng start) but now this.

Another thing occurred: at 7000+rpm, 21 psi, in 2nd gear the engine faded - like was slowly running out of gas - but tank was full and I was going straight. No SES light car runs good, compression ck same, any clues?

Inn-Tune

iTrader: (33)

eldguy: I'm with bolsen. I prefer to keep duty cycles under 80%. That way you have some headroom, the injectors last longer and run cooler, thus heating fuel less so your car runs more efficiently. I don't understand the arguments on here between tuners when one says "I can make more power on the same injector size" as if that's something to be proud of...

As for brands there are lots of good ones. Rochester, FIC, RC, Power Enterprise, Sard, Bosch, etc. I usually sell FIC's for mitsus unless they require something larger than 1000's.



C6C6CH3vo: A fuel pressure gauge would let you know if pressure is dropping when you feel the engine fading. I haven't had a Walbro fail on me but customers have said theirs got loud before they crapped out.

TrinaBabe

iTrader: (3)

Here is my fuel system to start with... I can help explain some things more or less as well:



Here are the correct equations for figuring fuel requirements:

(Power x Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) x (1 + Safety Margin percent) = Lbs/HR
You could convert Lbs/HR to Gallons Per hour by roughly Lbs/HR / 7.25 = GPH

The BSFC for our cars is roughly .65-.68 depending on type of gas (For gas... not meth or alchohol). (This is a generic number for Forced Induction Motors)

I believe Aeromotive uses a 20% Safety margin for thier pumps... so when they claim the A-1000 will pump 800 Horses (Forced Induction) it technically should push 960 Horses.... funnily enough Buschurs car Im pretty sure has the A-1000 and they just hit 903 saying the pump was getting close to its limit.

To put this equation into real world scenerios you must figure your estimated power output, decide a decent safety margin (Most people like .20) and go from there.

The more boost you plan to run, chances are you will be raising the BSFC by a few points.

Using that math, with a 500 HP car with moderate boost and a .30 (30%) safety margin, you would need 56 Gallons an hour (or 211.96 Liter per hour).

The neat thing is this is a simple formula that works for all parts of the system... it just tells you how much gas you need. This will also work for fuel injectors then So for fuel injectors this is the math:

((Power X BSFC) X (1 + Safety Margin)) / Number of Injectors = lbs / hr.

Now you take the lbs / hr from the injectors you want to use (Say 72 lbs/HR) and multiply it by four injectors:

Injector Rate x Number of injectors = total flow @ fuel injector rated flow

Since most injectors are rated at 43.5 psi this would mean at 43.5 psi those injectors would give you 288 lbs / hr @ 43.5 psi. (or 39.7 Gallons / Hr OR 150.4 Liter per hour).

The problem with injectors is figuring out thier flow at higher pressure. You should be able to simply do the math because the flow rate shouldnt really change... it normally will be a linear flow rate: So at 72 lb/hr @ 43.5 = 115 lbs/hr theorettically. In which case you will want to use a number closest to your realistic fuel pressure. So redo the math at that pressure and your injectors should flow that much for ya.

For instance:A 500 HP car wants to know if 72 lb/hr injectors are big enough:

72 lb/hr x 4 = 460.8 lbs/hr @ 70 psi.
To see if your pump can handle this take the flow rate at 70 psi and see if it is the same or greater (Usually use a 20% headroom). Our math for a 500 HP car should need a pump that pumps 406 Lbs / HR. Pretty much meaning the injectors could easily take the power with plenty of room because we earlier learned that you only need 406 Lbs/HR for a 500 Horse power car.

The other thing you will need to do at this point is figure out what psi the pump will be pushing.... you do this by taking your base fuel pressure (Which can be manipulated) and add psi for psi of boost you plan to run. So, if you run 43psi of base pressure and plan to run 28 psi of boost, you will be pushing the pump 71 psi. Now, the interesting part is where you can manipulate the base pressure.... you dont need too much to make the car run well but at lower pressure you will need bigger injectors and vica versa.

So say you are looking at a pump that can push the amount of fuel you need but not at 75 psi, you can lower the base pressure by a few psi (Which will make the car run leaner because the injectors arent firing as much fuel per duty cycle) but if the injectors are big enough, it wont matter. That is why injector sizing is so important. The other thing to remember is most injectors can handle around 90-98 psi of pressure.... so if you have really small injectors but your fuel pump can handle it you could raise your base pressure enough to make it so the injectors at peak boost are getting close to 90 psi instead of 70 (So run 55 psi of base pressure instead of 35). The injectors that say 720cc or 880cc etc etc are USUALLY rated at 43.5 psi. So if you raise the pressure, technically you could make a smaller injector spray more fuel.

I hope all this makes plenty of sense so far. Now the chances of you buying a pump that can handle 90psi of pressure and flow enough are pretty low... its much easier to buy bigger injectors but at least you understand how it all works together... you can manipulate your fuel system to suit your needs as much as you want.

Now as far as wiring for the stock Evo to the fuel pump... it is great. There should really not be any reason to change it. There are a few relays that work together but the big reason it is a good power supply system is when the ECU decides to go into "High Mode" it uses one relay that, if you follow the diagrams, pretty much goes straight from the battery to the pump. There is no better of doing it.

For fuel hose sizing Inn-Tune is pretty much correct but I dont agree with the pump outlet being 1 size smaller. The return hose diameter could be smaller but not the feed line. At 40psi of fuel pressure the numbers that are commonly used are -6 for 0-599, -8 for 500-799, -10 for 900-1100. Since we run turbo vehicles we use much high fuel pressure so the flow is greater and you could go down slightly... even though we take more gas to run the cars, the difference is still weighted in the line sizing shrinking slightly. The one thing you need to remember is the line is only as good as the smallest part, so if you have a stock rail, you dont need to feed it with huge line, or fittings anywhere which are smaller, why run bigger line... so the fuel can feed the small part better?

As far as fuel heating... this is the reason for it. First of all, the pump itself generates a decent amount of heat for various reasons (the motor, compressing fuel or accelerating it or both, etc, etc). The other reason is the friction from the lines generates heat. The line itself will get warm by being near hot components. etc.. Now.. with that said... the reason the fuel gets hot isnt because of duty cycles and things like that.... it is from recirculating it. If you heat the fuel by getting it to the rail and return a bunch of it back to the tank... it will get heated again. Do this over and over and over and over again... sooner or later that fuel gets pretty warm. The best way to keep it cool is to simply use it all The large the line, the better it is for keeping it cool. The lower the fuel pressure, the cooler it gets. Things like oil coolers can almost always be used as fuel coolers as well. The duty cycle itself has nothing to do with the temperature of the fuel.

I hope this helps people figuring out exactly what they need and how it all works. As for the fuel pump flow rates, they should all be commonly available (And if you need to you could request one). Dont listen to anything about how much it flows at a pressure you wont ever use... Use the formulas above to figure out your fuel requirements. Figure out the pressure you will be running (Based on injector size and boost mainly) and then look at the fuel pump flow chart for that pressure and near it. That is the only number you care about.

TrinaBabe

iTrader: (3)

And I dont know about the whole fuel pump companies that normally use 0 psi as thier test flow.... I assume you mean with 0 psi (Or as close to it as possible) of resistance. A pump, creates pressure... whether it spits it out in thin air or in a line that gets further pressurized, its still creating some pressure. There will always be pressure. You are displacing the air density from the outlet of the pump with fuel, this is pressure.

I believe most decent companies rate thier pumps at 45 psi... at least the ones I talk to always rate it at or very near 45 psi. Like Aeromotive... thier EFI pumps are rated at 45 psi and they give you the flow rates at under and over that pressure.

For instance the A-1000 is rated @ 600 Lbs/Hr at 45 psi. It is just under 500 Lbs//Hr @ 70 psi.