I want to blow up my engine!!! (Edited)
Feb 24, 2006, 07:46 AM
#136
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I agree with Super Hatch. How can you tell if your car is at 400whp or 415whp? You just cant tell with a butt dyno. So you cant tell that your car is running at the highest safe hp that it could be. I'm sure your car runs great but there is a chance that it could be better with some dyno time. The thing I have a problem with is telling everyone that road tuning is better then dyno when its not true.
Feb 24, 2006, 08:02 AM
#137
Originally Posted by Az3ar
Are you in the green group or the yellow? 
Well balanced E36 are very fast on the track. No disrespect bud but by the end of this year I will be an instructor would you like some lessons?
Dont even bring the M in because sure you will see his tail lights with an exprianced driver. you just had a GREEN groupeeee
Well balanced E36 are very fast on the track. No disrespect bud but by the end of this year I will be an instructor would you like some lessons?
Dont even bring the M in because sure you will see his tail lights with an exprianced driver. you just had a GREEN groupeeee
And thanks, but no thanks on the instructions....i was instructed by someoone who races 200k porsches on the weekends at places like the 24hrs of daytona and laguna seca in the rolex series. I think his creditials are a little better than someone's with 15 track days...LOL
Feb 24, 2006, 08:48 AM
#138
Originally Posted by SuperHatch
I think what Shiv was getting at is that 1 degree of timing can mean 10lbs of torque... so if you're coming down 2-3 degrees, you're leaving a lot of power on the table... this very recent thread proves that -
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=185643
I think you're actually talking about me since I was the guy talking in the other thread. I never claimed to be a big shot. All I said is I'd rather leave the tuning up to the professionals. If that makes me less of a man, then....
I also never said that you claimed to be the greatest...
Just food for thought, do you think maybe your engine has never blown up because you're tuning it SOOOO safely? Very far from the edge of destruction? Yeah, it works, yeah, it's fast, but it COULD be better, right? That's all I'm getting at here....
And I still stand by the fact that not all turbo kits are the same, and you'll find the overwhelming majority agree on this point. I understand your desire to defend your g/f, I do the same thing. But we all have learning curves, myself included. And I don't think just because she's a girl and it's cool that she has a fast car that she should allowed to get away with posting false information. So many guys are leg humpers and will yes her to death just to fulfill some sick online fantasy of theirs that will never happen.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=185643
I think you're actually talking about me since I was the guy talking in the other thread. I never claimed to be a big shot. All I said is I'd rather leave the tuning up to the professionals. If that makes me less of a man, then....
I also never said that you claimed to be the greatest...
Just food for thought, do you think maybe your engine has never blown up because you're tuning it SOOOO safely? Very far from the edge of destruction? Yeah, it works, yeah, it's fast, but it COULD be better, right? That's all I'm getting at here....
And I still stand by the fact that not all turbo kits are the same, and you'll find the overwhelming majority agree on this point. I understand your desire to defend your g/f, I do the same thing. But we all have learning curves, myself included. And I don't think just because she's a girl and it's cool that she has a fast car that she should allowed to get away with posting false information. So many guys are leg humpers and will yes her to death just to fulfill some sick online fantasy of theirs that will never happen.
At any rate, my point was very very simple:The setup will only produce a certain amount of power being on the edge of knocking. That you can find out with or without a dyno... you get the AFR right, advance the timing till it starts to get noisy, back it down a HAIR. That is the edge. That is where it will "safely" make the most power.
Do you need a dyno to show you how much power it is? No. It will make that amount of power whether on the street or a dyno. Now as far as being safe, yes I would GLADLY toss out 20WHP and 20Ft'lbs of TQ and ensure the car is plenty safe.. any temp, different gas, ran it harder than normal, sat in traffic for an hour, etc, etc... Now do I need a dyno to show me I left 20 HP on the table? Nope. The car will make what it makes and I KNOW I am detuning the car to be safer. So who cares if you slap it on a dyno and you show a loss of 20 horses?? Am I gonna re-add my 2 degrees of timing just to say I have 550 instead of 530? Nope.
The dyno will help while comparing parts, hence one of the big reasons shops use them. It also makes it so you dont need to go back and forth down a track or street to tune it. Does it make it so you can dial in your car for peak power any better.... possibly a small amount but not my much. A car will knock when it gets pushed hard enough and thats all the power it cant make. Yes you could try different tuning techniques (Another reason shops like dynos) and see which makes more power but once you know how you like to tune it doesnt matter. Some shops like to tune low timing, high boost. Some like high timing, lean AFR, low boost. Its all up to the person tuning. More experienced tuners will already know depending on what turbo is being used, which is the better route (More boost, less timing or more timing less boost).
So yes, in theory you could produce the MAXIMUM amount of power a car will make on a dyno... but in reality it doesnt matter. You push the car as hard as it will go without destruction, whether that be on a dyno or the street. In the thread you posted about the shop that added 1 degree of timing and made x amount more power... why did he need a dyno to do that?? He didnt. He could have easily pushed the car to the last degree of timing allowable and slap it on the dyno. It would have made the same power. He probably had a safe tune on the street and went for peak power on the dyno. There are a variety of things to consider like coolant fans, more load, less load, different gears, etc.... Thats why I street tune.
Ill give you a solid test that anyone can do. Take your car out and tune in ONLY 3rd or 4th gear for maximum power... leanest AFR and max timing. Now, go floor the car in 2nd gear, or 5th. You might be surprised that the car doesnt act anywhere near the same. When I am tuning the car I try to take the full 2nd, 3rd and 4th. I dont feel the need to ever floor the car in 5th (Going past 135 makes me tremble). And first is a joke. That way I get the best tune for all gears, I can edit and perfect every cell on my table.
I will end it with this.... yes you can tune a car with a dyno. Yes, you could in theory make the MOST out of the setup... does it matter in reality? No. It is only good for a dyno queen show. Can you tune the car for EVERY cell on the street? Yes. Can you ensure perfect driveability is had with tuning on the street? Yes. Can you ensure the car is safe with an extra 400lbs of load on the street, Yes. The street is just as easy to tune the car than any dyno. And for straightline performance do you need a dyno or does it really help on the track... probably not. If you really dont believe me go ask the guy with the fastest 4G63 AWD car in the world.... he doesnt exactly use any dynos and he seems to be doing alright
Feb 24, 2006, 08:55 AM
#139
Oh yeah, and if you really want to know how well your new parts, setup or tune is doing its not too tough to measure the amount of time taken to get from 3k-8k in 4th. As long as you have a datalogger that logs in a predetermined set time (Or logs time) and can log at least 30 samples/sec. It will probably take around 3-4 seconds... multiply it by 30 samples.... you get a pretty good indicator considering 15 horses will make it faster by more than .2 seconds. You may not know if it is exactly 15 but you know its faster
Feb 24, 2006, 09:06 AM
#140
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Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
Im not sure who I was directing that at... Someone was being a moron, you seem normal though At any rate, my point was very very simple:
The setup will only produce a certain amount of power being on the edge of knocking. That you can find out with or without a dyno... you get the AFR right, advance the timing till it starts to get noisy, back it down a HAIR. That is the edge. That is where it will "safely" make the most power.
Do you need a dyno to show you how much power it is? No. It will make that amount of power whether on the street or a dyno. Now as far as being safe, yes I would GLADLY toss out 20WHP and 20Ft'lbs of TQ and ensure the car is plenty safe.. any temp, different gas, ran it harder than normal, sat in traffic for an hour, etc, etc... Now do I need a dyno to show me I left 20 HP on the table? Nope. The car will make what it makes and I KNOW I am detuning the car to be safer. So who cares if you slap it on a dyno and you show a loss of 20 horses?? Am I gonna re-add my 2 degrees of timing just to say I have 550 instead of 530? Nope.
The dyno will help while comparing parts, hence one of the big reasons shops use them. It also makes it so you dont need to go back and forth down a track or street to tune it. Does it make it so you can dial in your car for peak power any better.... possibly a small amount but not my much. A car will knock when it gets pushed hard enough and thats all the power it cant make. Yes you could try different tuning techniques (Another reason shops like dynos) and see which makes more power but once you know how you like to tune it doesnt matter. Some shops like to tune low timing, high boost. Some like high timing, lean AFR, low boost. Its all up to the person tuning. More experienced tuners will already know depending on what turbo is being used, which is the better route (More boost, less timing or more timing less boost).
So yes, in theory you could produce the MAXIMUM amount of power a car will make on a dyno... but in reality it doesnt matter. You push the car as hard as it will go without destruction, whether that be on a dyno or the street. In the thread you posted about the shop that added 1 degree of timing and made x amount more power... why did he need a dyno to do that?? He didnt. He could have easily pushed the car to the last degree of timing allowable and slap it on the dyno. It would have made the same power. He probably had a safe tune on the street and went for peak power on the dyno. There are a variety of things to consider like coolant fans, more load, less load, different gears, etc.... Thats why I street tune.
Ill give you a solid test that anyone can do. Take your car out and tune in ONLY 3rd or 4th gear for maximum power... leanest AFR and max timing. Now, go floor the car in 2nd gear, or 5th. You might be surprised that the car doesnt act anywhere near the same. When I am tuning the car I try to take the full 2nd, 3rd and 4th. I dont feel the need to ever floor the car in 5th (Going past 135 makes me tremble). And first is a joke. That way I get the best tune for all gears, I can edit and perfect every cell on my table.
I will end it with this.... yes you can tune a car with a dyno. Yes, you could in theory make the MOST out of the setup... does it matter in reality? No. It is only good for a dyno queen show. Can you tune the car for EVERY cell on the street? Yes. Can you ensure perfect driveability is had with tuning on the street? Yes. Can you ensure the car is safe with an extra 400lbs of load on the street, Yes. The street is just as easy to tune the car than any dyno. And for straightline performance do you need a dyno or does it really help on the track... probably not. If you really dont believe me go ask the guy with the fastest 4G63 AWD car in the world.... he doesnt exactly use any dynos and he seems to be doing alright
At any rate, my point was very very simple:The setup will only produce a certain amount of power being on the edge of knocking. That you can find out with or without a dyno... you get the AFR right, advance the timing till it starts to get noisy, back it down a HAIR. That is the edge. That is where it will "safely" make the most power.
Do you need a dyno to show you how much power it is? No. It will make that amount of power whether on the street or a dyno. Now as far as being safe, yes I would GLADLY toss out 20WHP and 20Ft'lbs of TQ and ensure the car is plenty safe.. any temp, different gas, ran it harder than normal, sat in traffic for an hour, etc, etc... Now do I need a dyno to show me I left 20 HP on the table? Nope. The car will make what it makes and I KNOW I am detuning the car to be safer. So who cares if you slap it on a dyno and you show a loss of 20 horses?? Am I gonna re-add my 2 degrees of timing just to say I have 550 instead of 530? Nope.
The dyno will help while comparing parts, hence one of the big reasons shops use them. It also makes it so you dont need to go back and forth down a track or street to tune it. Does it make it so you can dial in your car for peak power any better.... possibly a small amount but not my much. A car will knock when it gets pushed hard enough and thats all the power it cant make. Yes you could try different tuning techniques (Another reason shops like dynos) and see which makes more power but once you know how you like to tune it doesnt matter. Some shops like to tune low timing, high boost. Some like high timing, lean AFR, low boost. Its all up to the person tuning. More experienced tuners will already know depending on what turbo is being used, which is the better route (More boost, less timing or more timing less boost).
So yes, in theory you could produce the MAXIMUM amount of power a car will make on a dyno... but in reality it doesnt matter. You push the car as hard as it will go without destruction, whether that be on a dyno or the street. In the thread you posted about the shop that added 1 degree of timing and made x amount more power... why did he need a dyno to do that?? He didnt. He could have easily pushed the car to the last degree of timing allowable and slap it on the dyno. It would have made the same power. He probably had a safe tune on the street and went for peak power on the dyno. There are a variety of things to consider like coolant fans, more load, less load, different gears, etc.... Thats why I street tune.
Ill give you a solid test that anyone can do. Take your car out and tune in ONLY 3rd or 4th gear for maximum power... leanest AFR and max timing. Now, go floor the car in 2nd gear, or 5th. You might be surprised that the car doesnt act anywhere near the same. When I am tuning the car I try to take the full 2nd, 3rd and 4th. I dont feel the need to ever floor the car in 5th (Going past 135 makes me tremble). And first is a joke. That way I get the best tune for all gears, I can edit and perfect every cell on my table.
I will end it with this.... yes you can tune a car with a dyno. Yes, you could in theory make the MOST out of the setup... does it matter in reality? No. It is only good for a dyno queen show. Can you tune the car for EVERY cell on the street? Yes. Can you ensure perfect driveability is had with tuning on the street? Yes. Can you ensure the car is safe with an extra 400lbs of load on the street, Yes. The street is just as easy to tune the car than any dyno. And for straightline performance do you need a dyno or does it really help on the track... probably not. If you really dont believe me go ask the guy with the fastest 4G63 AWD car in the world.... he doesnt exactly use any dynos and he seems to be doing alright
1 - You say you can hit every load cell on the street.... how? and how long can you hold the car in each load cell, and how can you quantitatively measure the +/- in power from the adjustments you've made. We're talking partial throttle cells here, you can't with any real repeatability time acceleration runs at half throttle to measure gains or losses.
2 - I only linked that thread to show the impact 1 degree of timing can have on a car's power output. I don't know what that guy's motives were for doing it, it was just an A-B comparison of what 1 degree of timing does to the power output.
Feb 24, 2006, 09:08 AM
#141
Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
Ill give you a solid test that anyone can do. Take your car out and tune in ONLY 3rd or 4th gear for maximum power... leanest AFR and max timing. Now, go floor the car in 2nd gear, or 5th. You might be surprised that the car doesnt act anywhere near the same. When I am tuning the car I try to take the full 2nd, 3rd and 4th. I dont feel the need to ever floor the car in 5th (Going past 135 makes me tremble). And first is a joke. That way I get the best tune for all gears, I can edit and perfect every cell on my table.
Feb 24, 2006, 09:24 AM
#142
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Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
...The setup will only produce a certain amount of power being on the edge of knocking. That you can find out with or without a dyno... you get the AFR right, advance the timing till it starts to get noisy, back it down a HAIR. That is the edge. That is where it will "safely" make the most power...
And the question does remain, how do you tune for non-WOT cells in your ECU's map (stock ECU or 3rd party)?
IMO, getting a great street tune is one of the most time-consuming tunes to get right, probably more difficult to dial in than a road-race tune and certainly more difficult than a good 1/4 mile tune simply because you have to address so many more variables for driving on the street than in race scenarios.
l8r)
Feb 24, 2006, 09:28 AM
#143
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Originally Posted by ShaunSG
Thanks Ludikraut, a friend brought my attention to your post.
Good points. One thing though...
A high performance / race engine built and honed right will have its rings seat within minutes of first fire up because of good bore geometry and the right finish. No 500 mile run in needed.
Regards
Good points. One thing though...
A high performance / race engine built and honed right will have its rings seat within minutes of first fire up because of good bore geometry and the right finish. No 500 mile run in needed.
Regards
l8r)
Feb 24, 2006, 09:28 AM
#144
Originally Posted by 4G63>OOOO
While I can appreciate your enthusiasm (Been there, bought the track time), a properly set up Evo will lap a properly set up E36 M3. You can fit a lot more tire under an Evo, have a ton more grip than an M3 and given the same budget, the Evo will be faster.
I was driving around E36's when my car was stock at Summit Point my first event.
As for being an instructor by the end of the year, you may very well be, but don't think that's because you're a great driver. These clubs need instructors and as soon as they see that you can get your *** out of trouble without freezing up, you usually make instructor.
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach"
Joe
I was driving around E36's when my car was stock at Summit Point my first event.
As for being an instructor by the end of the year, you may very well be, but don't think that's because you're a great driver. These clubs need instructors and as soon as they see that you can get your *** out of trouble without freezing up, you usually make instructor.
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach"
Joe
you ***
So are you in for another track day? I am in for March 3rd 4th and 5th at summit main... do you want to come?
Feb 24, 2006, 09:55 AM
#146
OK well here we go:
Superhatch:
You dont need to hold each and every RPM for a long time. Take this for an example.... say at -10psi your car requires x amount of fuel per cycle to hit 14.5AFR. Since the ECU will fire the injector at a said point (x degrees of tdc) every cycle, it does not matter what RPM you are at. Idle control obviously will be different but just cruising will be the same. Volumetric efficiency does play a small roll but not much since you are only at part throttle. Say your arbritrary number is 10 at 2k. At 5k, same load, it will not be much higher requirements for fueling. Therefore, once you get an idea of how much fuel the car needs at a certain load (say -14 to 5psi) its is incredibly simple to extropolate the data and get it close without even driving it any more. Then you go out and do a little driving and dial it in perfectly. As for the power output of the car at part throttle... it doesnt matter. You are tuning for driveability and gas mileage (If you care) and to ensure you dont have cylinder wash, etc... You dont care about your power output at 20% throttle. On top of that, most if not all, have the tables with load as one of the axis'... therefore you are tuning by how much boost so to say. The power of any car at part throttle is a joke... no one cares. Its when the car would be in 02 feedback mode anyways... your tuning shouldnt change the AFR on a stock ECU or something with 02 feedback... if it does your tune is way out of whack. 02 feedback overrides the actual tune. The timing is just a known variable for cruise and part throttle... no need to try different timing tables on partial throttle and cruise.
Evo 8 LTW: Depends on what I am tuning for... since the car is already dialed in for daily driving I am doing full on 2nd to 3rd to 4th shifts riding each one to around 7.5k. If I were doing it for daily driving I would do it much more simply... I find the fuel needed at 3k for -14 psi up to around 5psi and copy the whole table across. Or if you have some sort of a boost comp map it does all that for you. Then I would usually use 4th gear to actually test it... since it will obviously be good by that point the other gears dont matter for part throttle because I can turn on 02 feedback. If I dont have 02 feedback then I make the minor adjustments that may be needed for the other gears but usually there wont be much if any needed at all.
Ludikraut:
The boost vs. timing is two different ways people usually tune for. On any turbo you will be tuning for with our cars you will want the most boost you can run. We make more power with 1psi than with 1 degree of timing as long as you are within the efficiency range of the turbo. So on a stock turbo its pointless to drop 3 degrees of timing just so you can run 2psi more boost peaking at 29psi. Youd be better off with 3 degrees more timing at 27psi. On a GT35R the boost limits go up. Practice would be the way to know.
Ludikraut:
Like I said, I am not a professional tuner. I dont do this for money, I dont claim to be good at it. I do know that road tuning can be just as good as a dyno assuming you know what your doing. The only reason tuning on the street could be more time consuming than a dyno is if you need to drive a ways out to get to your "closed road". If you live in bumcrap, USA it is just as fast if not faster (No strapping anything on the car, no need to find a dyno, etc etc...). If you live in a large metropolitan area than yes.... it may be much more time consuming just because you need to find a good place to go.
But also keep in mind, this all started with a topic kinda about a reflashed car. The driveability part is already done with a reflash. The stock ECU already has all the tables... you just need to modify the overall fuel table and the WOT portion of the map. The driveability part is done from Mitsu... you may need to tweak the idle a bit but other than that you just sorta rescale the whole thing and get the fuel trims inline and it runs fine from there. Remember the stock ECU also has 02 feedback control (Like many aftermarket ECUs) so as long as the fuel tables are relatively close, the car will run fine. Just look at the fuel trims and adjust the main table from there. I dont think there is a way to turn the 02 feedback OFF from the stock ECU so in essence, even if you wanted to get it dialed in perfectly for part throttle, you simply cant. The ECU will always fight your changes and try to keep it at around 14.7 (Or wherever you are in the stock ECUs 02 feedback control map... if it even has a map).
I hope this all made sense... I can sum it up briefy.
Anything with the stock ECU can be tuned for street driving within 10 minutes. Idle control on a car with an enourmous amount of parts may take another 10-15 minutes. WOT throttle can be done the exact same way with or without a dyno. You could measure the HP more accurately on the street with enough equipment by measureing speed over time, acceleration over time, wind resistance, etc, etc... For us, the easiest way is to simply go to a flat road and always use that road for tuning then measure the time it takes to get from xxx RPM to XXXX RPM. Very simple.
Superhatch:
You dont need to hold each and every RPM for a long time. Take this for an example.... say at -10psi your car requires x amount of fuel per cycle to hit 14.5AFR. Since the ECU will fire the injector at a said point (x degrees of tdc) every cycle, it does not matter what RPM you are at. Idle control obviously will be different but just cruising will be the same. Volumetric efficiency does play a small roll but not much since you are only at part throttle. Say your arbritrary number is 10 at 2k. At 5k, same load, it will not be much higher requirements for fueling. Therefore, once you get an idea of how much fuel the car needs at a certain load (say -14 to 5psi) its is incredibly simple to extropolate the data and get it close without even driving it any more. Then you go out and do a little driving and dial it in perfectly. As for the power output of the car at part throttle... it doesnt matter. You are tuning for driveability and gas mileage (If you care) and to ensure you dont have cylinder wash, etc... You dont care about your power output at 20% throttle. On top of that, most if not all, have the tables with load as one of the axis'... therefore you are tuning by how much boost so to say. The power of any car at part throttle is a joke... no one cares. Its when the car would be in 02 feedback mode anyways... your tuning shouldnt change the AFR on a stock ECU or something with 02 feedback... if it does your tune is way out of whack. 02 feedback overrides the actual tune. The timing is just a known variable for cruise and part throttle... no need to try different timing tables on partial throttle and cruise.
Evo 8 LTW: Depends on what I am tuning for... since the car is already dialed in for daily driving I am doing full on 2nd to 3rd to 4th shifts riding each one to around 7.5k. If I were doing it for daily driving I would do it much more simply... I find the fuel needed at 3k for -14 psi up to around 5psi and copy the whole table across. Or if you have some sort of a boost comp map it does all that for you. Then I would usually use 4th gear to actually test it... since it will obviously be good by that point the other gears dont matter for part throttle because I can turn on 02 feedback. If I dont have 02 feedback then I make the minor adjustments that may be needed for the other gears but usually there wont be much if any needed at all.
Ludikraut:
The boost vs. timing is two different ways people usually tune for. On any turbo you will be tuning for with our cars you will want the most boost you can run. We make more power with 1psi than with 1 degree of timing as long as you are within the efficiency range of the turbo. So on a stock turbo its pointless to drop 3 degrees of timing just so you can run 2psi more boost peaking at 29psi. Youd be better off with 3 degrees more timing at 27psi. On a GT35R the boost limits go up. Practice would be the way to know.
Ludikraut:
Like I said, I am not a professional tuner. I dont do this for money, I dont claim to be good at it. I do know that road tuning can be just as good as a dyno assuming you know what your doing. The only reason tuning on the street could be more time consuming than a dyno is if you need to drive a ways out to get to your "closed road". If you live in bumcrap, USA it is just as fast if not faster (No strapping anything on the car, no need to find a dyno, etc etc...). If you live in a large metropolitan area than yes.... it may be much more time consuming just because you need to find a good place to go.
But also keep in mind, this all started with a topic kinda about a reflashed car. The driveability part is already done with a reflash. The stock ECU already has all the tables... you just need to modify the overall fuel table and the WOT portion of the map. The driveability part is done from Mitsu... you may need to tweak the idle a bit but other than that you just sorta rescale the whole thing and get the fuel trims inline and it runs fine from there. Remember the stock ECU also has 02 feedback control (Like many aftermarket ECUs) so as long as the fuel tables are relatively close, the car will run fine. Just look at the fuel trims and adjust the main table from there. I dont think there is a way to turn the 02 feedback OFF from the stock ECU so in essence, even if you wanted to get it dialed in perfectly for part throttle, you simply cant. The ECU will always fight your changes and try to keep it at around 14.7 (Or wherever you are in the stock ECUs 02 feedback control map... if it even has a map).
I hope this all made sense... I can sum it up briefy.
Anything with the stock ECU can be tuned for street driving within 10 minutes. Idle control on a car with an enourmous amount of parts may take another 10-15 minutes. WOT throttle can be done the exact same way with or without a dyno. You could measure the HP more accurately on the street with enough equipment by measureing speed over time, acceleration over time, wind resistance, etc, etc... For us, the easiest way is to simply go to a flat road and always use that road for tuning then measure the time it takes to get from xxx RPM to XXXX RPM. Very simple.
Feb 24, 2006, 10:22 AM
#147
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
Shaun, could you define "high performance / race engine"? The reason I ask is because I think that the average shop that is building 4g63 engines isn't adhering to the level of clearances and tolerances that would be found in a competition race engine (i.e. IRL, CHAMP, etc.). If you don't mind, I'd like to PM you with some questions I have on the break-in period...
l8r)
l8r)
Sure PM anytime.
Feb 24, 2006, 10:31 AM
#148
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Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
OK well here we go:
Superhatch:
You dont need to hold each and every RPM for a long time. Take this for an example.... say at -10psi your car requires x amount of fuel per cycle to hit 14.5AFR. Since the ECU will fire the injector at a said point (x degrees of tdc) every cycle, it does not matter what RPM you are at. Idle control obviously will be different but just cruising will be the same. Volumetric efficiency does play a small roll but not much since you are only at part throttle. Say your arbritrary number is 10 at 2k. At 5k, same load, it will not be much higher requirements for fueling. Therefore, once you get an idea of how much fuel the car needs at a certain load (say -14 to 5psi) its is incredibly simple to extropolate the data and get it close without even driving it any more. Then you go out and do a little driving and dial it in perfectly. As for the power output of the car at part throttle... it doesnt matter. You are tuning for driveability and gas mileage (If you care) and to ensure you dont have cylinder wash, etc... You dont care about your power output at 20% throttle. On top of that, most if not all, have the tables with load as one of the axis'... therefore you are tuning by how much boost so to say. The power of any car at part throttle is a joke... no one cares. Its when the car would be in 02 feedback mode anyways... your tuning shouldnt change the AFR on a stock ECU or something with 02 feedback... if it does your tune is way out of whack. 02 feedback overrides the actual tune. The timing is just a known variable for cruise and part throttle... no need to try different timing tables on partial throttle and cruise.
Superhatch:
You dont need to hold each and every RPM for a long time. Take this for an example.... say at -10psi your car requires x amount of fuel per cycle to hit 14.5AFR. Since the ECU will fire the injector at a said point (x degrees of tdc) every cycle, it does not matter what RPM you are at. Idle control obviously will be different but just cruising will be the same. Volumetric efficiency does play a small roll but not much since you are only at part throttle. Say your arbritrary number is 10 at 2k. At 5k, same load, it will not be much higher requirements for fueling. Therefore, once you get an idea of how much fuel the car needs at a certain load (say -14 to 5psi) its is incredibly simple to extropolate the data and get it close without even driving it any more. Then you go out and do a little driving and dial it in perfectly. As for the power output of the car at part throttle... it doesnt matter. You are tuning for driveability and gas mileage (If you care) and to ensure you dont have cylinder wash, etc... You dont care about your power output at 20% throttle. On top of that, most if not all, have the tables with load as one of the axis'... therefore you are tuning by how much boost so to say. The power of any car at part throttle is a joke... no one cares. Its when the car would be in 02 feedback mode anyways... your tuning shouldnt change the AFR on a stock ECU or something with 02 feedback... if it does your tune is way out of whack. 02 feedback overrides the actual tune. The timing is just a known variable for cruise and part throttle... no need to try different timing tables on partial throttle and cruise.
Lets just leave this where it is, you and I will agree to disagree, be civil, and walk away from this.
Feb 24, 2006, 12:58 PM
#149
Al, if you read through Speedlimit's post, it says no where that vendors should stay out of this thread. He stated that:
I think this means that vendors are allowed to post so long as it contributes to the overall technical discussion of the thread.
Yet again you are resorting to name calling. Is it difficult for you to to say "a select few" or "certain members" with out trying to cast them in a negative light? All this does is to help continue the animosity that certain members have against you. Maybe if you treated them with respect and respected their opinion you might have an easier time on EvolutionM. Maybe you need to familiarize yourself with this thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/announcement.php?f=22
As far as your post concerning road racing, I agree with you on some points. As they say in this business: "You have to pay to play". There is always the distinct possibility that a engine may let go, as it is under conditions that are much more harsh than that of normal street driving.
All the other vendor comments were removed. The enthusiast aspect of this website is important and threads such as these should remain open for discussion unencumbered by vendor agenda's. Please visit their forums to discuss tuning methods and services.
Yet again you are resorting to name calling. Is it difficult for you to to say "a select few" or "certain members" with out trying to cast them in a negative light? All this does is to help continue the animosity that certain members have against you. Maybe if you treated them with respect and respected their opinion you might have an easier time on EvolutionM. Maybe you need to familiarize yourself with this thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/announcement.php?f=22
As far as your post concerning road racing, I agree with you on some points. As they say in this business: "You have to pay to play". There is always the distinct possibility that a engine may let go, as it is under conditions that are much more harsh than that of normal street driving.
Last edited by Event-Horizon; Feb 24, 2006 at 01:02 PM.
Feb 24, 2006, 01:24 PM
#150
As much as Al and I don't see eye to eye on many things, even I have to agree with him on this one!
When my Evo runs, it is on a track most of the time. When on the track, I use leaded 112 octane gas, restrict boost to 22psi MAX and datalog every session with the AEM EMS. A street tune is a street tune and a race tune is a race tune. Part of this game that we play is building a car that is capable of running to the limit on a racetrack, but you can't expect over 100HP per cylinder and keep a Jiffy Lube maintenance schedule. Every time I go to the track, I change the oil the day before AND the day after, no excuses. A visual bearing inspection and plastigauge would be ideal after each use, but most people don't want to do that.
If you want to put your car on a track, you have to deal with the fact that it's going to cost MONEY to do so, period. This money isn't just when you write your check for tracktime, folks. I would budget for a refreshening of a motor once a season, if you're lucky.
I know, it SOUNDS like overkill, but that's just the way it is, period. Pay to play or stay home and wax your car.
When my Evo runs, it is on a track most of the time. When on the track, I use leaded 112 octane gas, restrict boost to 22psi MAX and datalog every session with the AEM EMS. A street tune is a street tune and a race tune is a race tune. Part of this game that we play is building a car that is capable of running to the limit on a racetrack, but you can't expect over 100HP per cylinder and keep a Jiffy Lube maintenance schedule. Every time I go to the track, I change the oil the day before AND the day after, no excuses. A visual bearing inspection and plastigauge would be ideal after each use, but most people don't want to do that.
If you want to put your car on a track, you have to deal with the fact that it's going to cost MONEY to do so, period. This money isn't just when you write your check for tracktime, folks. I would budget for a refreshening of a motor once a season, if you're lucky.
I know, it SOUNDS like overkill, but that's just the way it is, period. Pay to play or stay home and wax your car.