I want to blow up my engine!!! (Edited)
Feb 23, 2006, 11:05 AM
#106
I've never used an AEM, but I have been around an Autronic. I know that it would have been impossible to tune it on the road compared to being tuned on a Dyno.
Take a look: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=179360
There is absolutely no way you can tune every load cell on the road as you can never hold it there for prolong periods of time. On a dyno, you can sit inside one load cell for as long as you'd like and see what differences in power a change would have made. While you may be able to tune for a particular AFR on the road, you'll never know what timing adjustments do. On the dyno you can see what changing timing did at a particular load cell. It just a much better way to tune a car.
Who says an MD is the most popular here in the states?
Also, if you had any interest in physics then you’d have an idea what my screen name is about… jeez.
Take a look: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=179360
There is absolutely no way you can tune every load cell on the road as you can never hold it there for prolong periods of time. On a dyno, you can sit inside one load cell for as long as you'd like and see what differences in power a change would have made. While you may be able to tune for a particular AFR on the road, you'll never know what timing adjustments do. On the dyno you can see what changing timing did at a particular load cell. It just a much better way to tune a car.
Who says an MD is the most popular here in the states?
Also, if you had any interest in physics then you’d have an idea what my screen name is about… jeez.
Feb 23, 2006, 11:06 AM
#107
Originally Posted by mugenmrx3
My original post was in response to what TrinaBabe posted:
1) Its not hard to hit every cell with road tuning
2) I would always rather tune my car on a track than on a dyno
3) On a dyno you dont have any real world characteristics
The post was not directed at Dynoflash. Road tuning after a proper dyno tuning session is ideal if time permits. But saying that road tuning instead of dyno tuning is better makes no sense. If that was the case then there would be no need for tuning shops to own a dyno. And buying a dyno would be a waste of money.
Dynoflash stated that all his R&D for his base maps were done on a dyno and the road tuning was performed on various customer's car to make minor adjustments due to different mods on each car. That's fine, the initial legwork was done on a dyno and the road tune was for minor adjustments. My original argument was that strictly road tuning rather than dyno tuning is not the right way to properly tune a car and it can be dangerous.
If a customer came to you with 911 turbo and a motec with no base maps, you think he's going to be happy when you tell him that you're going to build his based map and completely tune his car from scratch by taking his car out for a road tune--i don't think so.
As far as Dynojet is concern, yes i would say it's an inferior chassis dyno. It's only good for a sweep test and a final hp/tq number. And that number is always inflated. No dyno in the world read as high as the Dynojet. Why do you think dynojet is coming out with the 224xLC and 424xLC. The LC model comes with a Eddy Load Current unit for steady state tuning. It's a move in the right direction, but their still behind the rest of the other loading dynos. If their inertia dyno was all that great they wouldn't of attempted to add-on a loading unit. Dynojet may have sold more than a few 1000 inertia dynos but i can tell you that 99% of them are in the US.
I hate to say it but we're behind the rest of the world in the tuning device market. Just look at all the popular ECUs in the US market, Most of them are from Australia, UK, or Europe, Asia. i.e. Motec, Autronic, Haltech, AEM EMS (Based on the GEMS ECU of UK), ECUTEk, TechTom, Revo,Turbotec,Evotech.
Dynojet and Dynocom (Canada) are the only two inertia dyno that i know of. The rest of the chassis dyno are all loading dyno(eddy current, waterbrake, hydraulic, etc):
Dynapack, DynoDynamics, DTS (Aus), Rototest, Superflow, Dynomite, Mustang, Maha, Bosch, Vane, Dynolog, Dynatest, Clayton, Vamag, Tayor, and the list goes on and on. If the inertia dyno was all that, why is the rest of the world not buliding it. But if you had a choice of just road tuning or tuning on a dynojet by all means use the dynojet.
Again, i apologize if anyone feels that my post was directed at them personally. I just wanted to educate the easily-influence members of this board, that just because one person does things one way does not necessarilly mean it's the right way. A forum like this can provide a lot of useful information, but we all need to filter out information that's valid and useful and ignore things that makes no sense.
So let's end this discussion and get back to the "blown motor"
1) Its not hard to hit every cell with road tuning
2) I would always rather tune my car on a track than on a dyno
3) On a dyno you dont have any real world characteristics
The post was not directed at Dynoflash. Road tuning after a proper dyno tuning session is ideal if time permits. But saying that road tuning instead of dyno tuning is better makes no sense. If that was the case then there would be no need for tuning shops to own a dyno. And buying a dyno would be a waste of money.
Dynoflash stated that all his R&D for his base maps were done on a dyno and the road tuning was performed on various customer's car to make minor adjustments due to different mods on each car. That's fine, the initial legwork was done on a dyno and the road tune was for minor adjustments. My original argument was that strictly road tuning rather than dyno tuning is not the right way to properly tune a car and it can be dangerous.
If a customer came to you with 911 turbo and a motec with no base maps, you think he's going to be happy when you tell him that you're going to build his based map and completely tune his car from scratch by taking his car out for a road tune--i don't think so.
As far as Dynojet is concern, yes i would say it's an inferior chassis dyno. It's only good for a sweep test and a final hp/tq number. And that number is always inflated. No dyno in the world read as high as the Dynojet. Why do you think dynojet is coming out with the 224xLC and 424xLC. The LC model comes with a Eddy Load Current unit for steady state tuning. It's a move in the right direction, but their still behind the rest of the other loading dynos. If their inertia dyno was all that great they wouldn't of attempted to add-on a loading unit. Dynojet may have sold more than a few 1000 inertia dynos but i can tell you that 99% of them are in the US.
I hate to say it but we're behind the rest of the world in the tuning device market. Just look at all the popular ECUs in the US market, Most of them are from Australia, UK, or Europe, Asia. i.e. Motec, Autronic, Haltech, AEM EMS (Based on the GEMS ECU of UK), ECUTEk, TechTom, Revo,Turbotec,Evotech.
Dynojet and Dynocom (Canada) are the only two inertia dyno that i know of. The rest of the chassis dyno are all loading dyno(eddy current, waterbrake, hydraulic, etc):
Dynapack, DynoDynamics, DTS (Aus), Rototest, Superflow, Dynomite, Mustang, Maha, Bosch, Vane, Dynolog, Dynatest, Clayton, Vamag, Tayor, and the list goes on and on. If the inertia dyno was all that, why is the rest of the world not buliding it. But if you had a choice of just road tuning or tuning on a dynojet by all means use the dynojet.
Again, i apologize if anyone feels that my post was directed at them personally. I just wanted to educate the easily-influence members of this board, that just because one person does things one way does not necessarilly mean it's the right way. A forum like this can provide a lot of useful information, but we all need to filter out information that's valid and useful and ignore things that makes no sense.
So let's end this discussion and get back to the "blown motor"
There are a ton of reasons why shops buy and use dynos but it isnt to find MBT and things like that. It is so they can test different setups and compare one to another. Try out new headers and visually see the difference. Yes they use it to tune a customers car because 1.) Its MUCH safer than road tuning 2.) Its cheaper than running it a track over and over again 3.) Its much faster and easier to get it close 4.) The customer is happy because they get a dyno sheet of how great thier car is.
There is NO way your going to tell me a dyno is needed to make the car fast or run well. It is just as easy on the street (Closed street w/ no traffic or a "no traffic roadway") to tune a car for every single load point. The only load points that need to be dialed in well are the WOT points and where the car could potentially be while making power. In low power situations why would you need a dyno?? To make the BEST power at 0psi with 20% throttle at 2k? Obviously not. By the time you get the car to drive around and make the WOT sections good, the other cells are easily done up in about 10 minutes. You use the wideband, dial in the AFR for a certain load point (Say -10 psi, then -9, then -8, etc). The timing you just write in there (If your tuning cars you should know what type of timing to run at 0-30% throttle situations).
Now, if I had a shop and was tuning cars "professionally" then yes, I would most likely be using a dyno but it would NOT be for the part load / cruise cells. I would use it for the WOT section of the tables. That way the police arent mad, I dont destroy someones 100k Porsche, the customer leaves with a little printout of how great his car is, and it is faster than driving back and forth down a road. Now using a Dyno also has huge disadvantages... most of which dont matter in a tuners case. First being the airflow and temp. You should know of anyone how hard it is to one, give the car anough air to "mimick" the road at 100mph and secondly, how hot these cars will get after 10 pulls sitting in a room. You would also obviously have to know when enough is enough, and learn to not care about the numbers... you would need to dial in the car where it made good power and was close to detonation and then back it down (Hard to tell a customer why you made his car less powerful in the views of safety... especially because everyone now a days think they have a racecar). The other HUGE disadvantage that a dyno brings is it aint small. You cant pack that bugger up on an airplane and tune peoples cars all over the states with one. It also does have a heafty pricetag associated with it. If you wanted a cheap tune, that was perfectly safe, and didnt want to drive 100 miles+ to get it done, than yes.... a road tune is what you need. Take in most peoples cases... we have AWD cars, you need an AWD dyno to slap it on one. The closest AWD dyno to me is over 100 miles and thats close compared to alot of people. Yes, I could convert it to a FWD but how many people can do this by themselves or are willing to just to have thier car made to run with larger injectors? Also, how many people having welded viscous couplings lying around or how many people are willing to spend the time and money converting thier car back and forth? If you switch to a Motec or AEM EMS then yes, you should probably be willing to do all this if you cant tune it yourself. But for the people with stock ECUs that want a basic retune (For minor mods) then whats the point?
Sorry for the long post and cluttering up this thread again, but really. People should know that a dyno doesnt do anything special. Its an easy way for someone to tune thier car without crashing into some poor guy or getting in some police troubles. But when its all said and done, thier tune will look prettty much the same as the guys tune that was done on the street. The tuner, whether doing it on the street or dyno will tune it for maximum power with no knock (Within reason) and then back it down a few degrees of timing and ensure the fuel is within a safe margin. So what difference is it if they are sitting on a dyno or not?
And about holding the car at certain load points making adjustments... come on. What kind of difference are you going to make before the car spools... not enough to care. Once it spools yes you could try to give the car a more broad range of power but then you need to think of how the ECU will respond under NORMAL conditions (Flying through these load points faster than the ECU can respond... 2nd gear acceleration). You could dial in the car perfectly for every single load point and make each one perfect and the first time you drive it on the street and floor it you might be surprised that the ECU is trying to react fast enough but cant so it ends up leaning out the mixture at 5k instead of 4.6k making the car detonate like hell.
Last edited by TrinaBabe; Feb 23, 2006 at 11:16 AM.
Feb 23, 2006, 11:28 AM
#108
some people want there car to perform well on the street under normal driving conditions. Using your logic, everyone drives around all the time at WOT. This is not the case, you have to tune every load point equally to get partial throttle driveability and idle to work properly. Think of it like a house of cards, you knock out one card and the whole house comes down.
Feb 23, 2006, 01:06 PM
#109
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Originally Posted by Speedlimit
Threads such as these are very informative and important for our members to reference. The originator did not mention a specific tuner nor assign blame and there is no need for vendor's to defend. Mail in flashes have been successfully used for years on EVo's and a safe way to gain additional power over the factory tune. If you have a competent tuner nearby with a chassis dyno then consider that and the benefits of tuning under controlled parameters.
Dave Buschur's addition to this thread remains, as he added to the technical content. All the other vendor comments were removed. The enthusiast aspect of this website is important and threads such as these should remain open for discussion unencumbered by vendor agenda's. Please visit their forums to discuss tuning methods and services.
I do this with the full understanding that the owner may get complaints from the folks who pay the bills around here. And I respect their right to get me fired But we really should have the ability to review products and services without a thread being trashed or locked due to vendor's arguing with each other. Thanks.
Bob....
Speedlimit...
Dave Buschur's addition to this thread remains, as he added to the technical content. All the other vendor comments were removed. The enthusiast aspect of this website is important and threads such as these should remain open for discussion unencumbered by vendor agenda's. Please visit their forums to discuss tuning methods and services.
I do this with the full understanding that the owner may get complaints from the folks who pay the bills around here. And I respect their right to get me fired
But we really should have the ability to review products and services without a thread being trashed or locked due to vendor's arguing with each other. Thanks.Bob....
Speedlimit...
Feb 23, 2006, 01:38 PM
#110
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Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
[b]The tuner, whether doing it on the street or dyno will tune it for maximum power with no knock (Within reason) and then back it down a few degrees of timing and ensure the fuel is within a safe margin.
shiv
Feb 23, 2006, 02:11 PM
#111
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This has got to be the most honest thread I have ever read. Thank you!!!
I see many customer cryin and ***** when something goes wrong with there Evo. After I finish counting all the mods they have on both hands, I usually ask them, "Do you have any background in auto mechanics". The answer is ussually "NO" or "I took an auto shop class in highschool".
You would be surprized on how many individuals have no idea on how an engine works. (This isn't directed to everyone). Now I understand the Manufacturer does make mistakes a portion of the time. But come on, if you have 400 hp invested into you engine with all different mod parts, then your check engine light comes on, how can you justify if its Mitsubishi's fault or your mods.
Look you got to pay to play.
I see many customer cryin and ***** when something goes wrong with there Evo. After I finish counting all the mods they have on both hands, I usually ask them, "Do you have any background in auto mechanics". The answer is ussually "NO" or "I took an auto shop class in highschool".
You would be surprized on how many individuals have no idea on how an engine works. (This isn't directed to everyone). Now I understand the Manufacturer does make mistakes a portion of the time. But come on, if you have 400 hp invested into you engine with all different mod parts, then your check engine light comes on, how can you justify if its Mitsubishi's fault or your mods.
Look you got to pay to play.
Last edited by EVO_JOE; Feb 23, 2006 at 02:15 PM.
Feb 23, 2006, 03:34 PM
#114
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Originally Posted by Greg K
more trophies does not prove it's better, just that it works. both are viable options.
Feb 23, 2006, 03:38 PM
#115
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Originally Posted by Technical XTC
How is road tuning not the best when Buschur has done it and has more trophies then any of us to prove its merrits?
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=185416
Feb 23, 2006, 03:49 PM
#116
Originally Posted by Technical XTC
Wait, so having the fastest car and winning races time and time and again disproves a better system? So all those cars that are losing are doing it correctly? How is a road tune not the best? It properly loads the car and also accounts for wind cooling the radiator and FMIC and so on. It accounts for the most variables so it has to be the best way to tune a vehicle.
Last edited by gsujeff55; Feb 23, 2006 at 04:01 PM.
Feb 23, 2006, 03:53 PM
#117
How about this, someone needs to get a "road tune" and put it on the dyno to see what it puts down. next, have someone dyno tune it and see what the results are. I'll bet that the dyno tune will be much better in every respect. power, idle, and drive ability.
Feb 23, 2006, 04:02 PM
#120
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Maybe some of you have heard of a little company called Apex-i.http://www.apexi-usa.com/racing_circuit.asp They happen to use an AWD dyno pack and have won plenty of races.